Is horseback riding vegan?
Posted by SnowQueen690 on Jan 16, 2008 · Member since Jun 2005 · 1569 posts
This subject was brought up on another forum I was looking at and it made me wonder. Horses kept as pets need to be ridden for excercise. I am a horseback rider (as if you couldn't tell) and I still consider myself mostly vegan (90% because I am not the best at reading labels and sometimes goof).
What do you think? Can a person be vegan while riding horses?
I guess I just don't see verbal language as the highest form of communication. A tilt of the head, a whimper or a wagging tail can speak volumes. Words are not necessary for complete understanding. In fact, sometimes they can get in the way of understanding - people talk past each other all the time. Misunderstandings based on verbal communication happen daily. I find body language to be just as, if not more, reliable than words. I understand some animals better than I understand some human beings...
(That wasn't aimed at you, by the way, Fee.. sorry if it seemed that way! It was just a my reaction to a general undertone I sensed throughout this discussion.)
Horse riding is a form of exploitation. Humans horse back ride for their pleasure, not for the horses. Animal exploitation isn't vegan, no matter how 'happy' you claim the animal to be. Horses have to be broken in to be ridden, making it obvious they weren't intended to be ridden in the first place. Look after a horse, fine, but don't ride it, there's no need.
No horse needs to be ridden. Horses are social animals, that belong with other horses in a large space so they can gallop, etc, and do herding behaviour. They don't belong underneath a silly homosapien. And lunging is a part of training horses to be ridden...wrong. Saying a horse needs to be ridden for exercise is a common excuse by horse riders who keep their horses cooped up in stables....or give the horses very little pasture time. If you can't afford enough space for horses to exercise adequately with other horses then you shouldn't be having horses in the first place.
Simply put, horse riding is using an animal for personal pleasure. Something that is wrong. It is putting a human before an animal. Something that is wrong. Nobody needs to ride horses, so why do so?
This might help people understand: http://veganfaq.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-horseback-riding-vegan.html
Horse riding is a form of exploitation. Humans horse back ride for their pleasure, not for the horses. Animal exploitation isn't vegan, no matter how 'happy' you claim the animal to be. Horses have to be broken in to be ridden, making it obvious they weren't intended to be ridden in the first place. Look after a horse, fine, but don't ride it, there's no need.
No horse needs to be ridden. Horses are social animals, that belong with other horses in a large space so they can gallop, etc, and do herding behaviour. They don't belong underneath a silly homosapien. And lunging is a part of training horses to be ridden...wrong. Saying a horse needs to be ridden for exercise is a common excuse by horse riders who keep their horses cooped up in stables....or give the horses very little pasture time. If you can't afford enough space for horses to exercise adequately with other horses then you shouldn't be having horses in the first place.
Simply put, horse riding is using an animal for personal pleasure. Something that is wrong. It is putting a human before an animal. Something that is wrong. Nobody needs to ride horses, so why do so?
This might help people understand: http://veganfaq.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-horseback-riding-vegan.html
Wow, some link. I especially like the line that akins the relationship of horse owners and their horses to that of dogs and dog fighters. Yeahhhhh.
I guess I can see your point, it is more like circus animals being used for exploitation which isn't vegan (instead of the dog and dog fighters line!).
But horese really do enjoy it. Sure, they don't actually like to be ridden, the bit, the cinch strap, but they do enjoy getting out, seeing new places. Horses are intellegent, and like us, they get bored. So they like to get out of their stall, or pasture every now and again. Who wouldn't? That wouldn't be possible if they weren't ridden.
But I appreciate having someone here who disagrees, it keeps the arguement interesting.
Personally, I think horseback riding is vegan, and will always enjoy it. I plan to start my son with lessons as soon as he is old enough!
Horse riding is a form of exploitation. Humans horse back ride for their pleasure, not for the horses. Animal exploitation isn't vegan, no matter how 'happy' you claim the animal to be. Horses have to be broken in to be ridden, making it obvious they weren't intended to be ridden in the first place. Look after a horse, fine, but don't ride it, there's no need.
No horse needs to be ridden. Horses are social animals, that belong with other horses in a large space so they can gallop, etc, and do herding behaviour. They don't belong underneath a silly homosapien. And lunging is a part of training horses to be ridden...wrong. Saying a horse needs to be ridden for exercise is a common excuse by horse riders who keep their horses cooped up in stables....or give the horses very little pasture time. If you can't afford enough space for horses to exercise adequately with other horses then you shouldn't be having horses in the first place.
Simply put, horse riding is using an animal for personal pleasure. Something that is wrong. It is putting a human before an animal. Something that is wrong. Nobody needs to ride horses, so why do so?
This might help people understand: http://veganfaq.blogspot.com/2007/10/is-horseback-riding-vegan.html
Wow, some link. I especially like the line that akins the relationship of horse owners and their horses to that of dogs and dog fighters. Yeahhhhh.
I guess I can see your point, it is more like circus animals being used for exploitation which isn't vegan (instead of the dog and dog fighters line!).
But horese really do enjoy it. Sure, they don't actually like to be ridden, the bit, the cinch strap, but they do enjoy getting out, seeing new places. Horses are intellegent, and like us, they get bored. So they like to get out of their stall, or pasture every now and again. Who wouldn't? That wouldn't be possible if they weren't ridden.
But I appreciate having someone here who disagrees, it keeps the arguement interesting.
Personally, I think horseback riding is vegan, and will always enjoy it. I plan to start my son with lessons as soon as he is old enough!
Horseback riding IS NOT VEGAN. Please don't claim to be something you're not. How do you know the horse enjoys it? Given they're not naturally meant to have a stupid fat ass human on their back, I somehow doubt it. Would you like to be ridden? Doubt it somehow.
You don't need to ride horses to allow them out to pasture. That's just poppycock. Man the excuses the horse exploitaters come out with pisses me off. Next you'll be telling me it's ok to ride elephants and donkeys and alpacas, etc. Nor do you need to ride a horse to take them to new places. Ever heard of leading a horse? Or is that too much to ask of a human since the human gains nothing from it. People only ride horses for their own pleasure. It's an utter fallacy to claim otherwise.
It makes me ashamed to be grouped together under one name (vegan) with others who clearly only care about their own enjoyment.
I object to being called a stupid fatass, kthx.
If horse riding is not vegan, neither are service dogs. Neither is agility training. Or teaching a bird to talk. Or teaching a horse to walk on a lead. Or getting a cat to wear a collar.
So if I call a horse over, scrabble up a fence onto its back while he stands there and whumfles like happy horses do, then I pat him on the shoulder and click my tongue and ask him to go in a certain direction by gently nudging his flank, I'm an abusive, non-vegan prick exploiting a beautiful animal for my own sick pleasure?
Using a horse = not vegan. But I don't think riding necessarily = using. When my cat comes up and jumps on my shoulders for a free ride around the house, that's more exploitation than me pretty much having to rely on the horse wanting to let me on its back.
I don't really agree with stables/renting horse rides/whatever, though. And I'm no great equestrian, so I'm never going to be asking a horse to do anything it won't naturally be willing to do.
I'm weird, here; I know... Though almost exclusively a planteater, and in agreement with most folks here about most things, I don't identify as vegan; so my 2 cents may not mean much...
But wouldn't it be better to ask, 'Is my riding of this horse a good idea?' or 'Will I cause harm to this animal by engaging in this activity?' Or 'Would this horse enjoy a good brisk ride with me, or be bothered by it?' Or whatever... I guess I just have persistent problems with letting groupthink (even among groups I quite like!) supersede individual reflection & judgment. I don't think people should define themselves by labels as much as we humans tend to do -- in politics or religion or food ethics or anything else. *You* know whether your particular activities with your particular horse are abusive or exploitative, far better than anyone else does (I suspect very much, for members here, that they are not!)... whether or not others agree with you about what the label 'vegan' dictates, a happy horse is a happy horse.
Not all human-animal interaction is 'exploitation' just because the humans happen to enjoy it too. I pet my doggies, and my blood pressure drops, and I feel happy: is that exploitation? They bark, and very helpfully alert me when there's a stranger in my yard, or at my door: exploitation? When I was little, my cat Lizzie came running whenever I'd cry, and invent funny 'tricks' to amuse and comfort her human kit... She was quite distressed when I was sad (she was the BEST cat-nanny ever!)... it always worked, too, & made me happy. Was I exploiting a cat for my own gains, at the tender age of 4, since I benefited from that interaction? Guinea hens gobble up the problem bugs (ticks! fleas! in AR, in the woods, with many housepets, those guys are PROBLEMS!) in my mom's yard; pet-chicken poop makes great organic fertilizer; earthworms introduced to the compost bin results in great compost & fat healthy (presumably content) worms; horses enjoy exercise while humans enjoy a sensory experience like nothing else (for those who have never ridden, it can be exhilarating -- for both creatures!)... None of this seems like exploitation to me, given content & cared-for animals. My dogs are happy in my company, and I in theirs. Your horse enjoys a good trail ride (if anyone thinks they don't, they don't ride!), and so do you...
So, do what makes a happy horse; if that also makes you happy, cool! If others disagree on principle, then they shouldn't ride a horse. That seems like about the long and short of it, to me... human nature being what it is, even groups of similar people are never going to agree on everything 100% of the time. I think it makes more sense to make decisions based on what YOU think is right, and then (if you want a label/ community/ whatever) choose the name that comes closest to fitting the way you see things... Like, maybe you vote Democratic most of the time, but every now & then you like an Independent candidate: vote the issues, or vote for character, or whatever; but don't make the decision on who to vote for by saying 'What would a Democrat do?' (And if you do vote Independent once in a blue moon, I don't think people should be offended if you still call yourself a Democrat!)
Approaching issues 'label-first' seems, to me, to be (grin!) 'putting the cart before the horse.' So to speak.
::)
Okay, first off ruziko, I never claimed that I am a vegan, because in the strictest sense of the word I am not, nor for that matter am I even a 100% die hard vegetarian. I do eat meat once in a blue moon, mainly when I go out, but 70% of the time I am vegan, 90% of the time I am vegetarain. My question was is riding horses vegan.
Now, you seem to be getting pretty mad. I didn't intend for anybody to get mad, I just wanted a good debate and wanted to hear other people's opinions, including yours. I like to see what other people think, that is all.
But you said that a horse can get out of the stall and pasture if they are led. But in all honesty, have you ever actually lead a horse? Their walk is just naturally faster than ours. At least in my experience, horses don't really like to be lead places, they prefer to be ridden, mainly because they can move at their own pace then, they don't have to concentrate on walking slowly then.
You can't let them go, horses aren't very obedient, not like dogs, most horses I know would not come back when you call them if you let them out with no lead or halter. They just want to go find some grass and grain and hell with you.
But when you ride, you can RUN! Horses LOVE to run. It is in their blood, it is what evolution has built them for. How easy it it to run in a fenced in area, how exciting is that? But when you are out on the trail you can let the reins loose (this is how I ride) squeeze your legs together (which is the signal to the horse to go faster) and then ZOOM, you are flying. Trees rushing past, wind in your hair, I drop the reins and hold my arms out and yell "yaaaa hoooo!" The power of the horse, the rhythem of his hoof beats, the sound of him breathing, the feeling of powerful muscles pumping. And the horse is happy, in every fiber of his being you can see it. He loves to run, I love to let him run.
But speaking of evolution, are they biologically designed to carry humans? No. Otherwise they would be born with saddles and stirrups. Do they enjoy it, most of the time, yes!
If you ride what I like to say is properly, then most of the time the reins are loose, there is no to very little pressure on the horses mouth. And the only time you ever put pressure there to tell him to turn, and in which case it is only very gentle pressure. I was actually trying to train my mom's horse to turn with my legs rather than the bit. But he just wasn't getting it. I wanted to get him to the point where he didn't need a bit, but I didn't have enough time. Bummer. Now I hear of bitless bridals.
I wish I could take you on a ride so you could understand.
WOW... Everyone is vegan for their own reason... There are far too few of us to judge each other so harshly! I can understand where your coming from Ruziko but I think riding a horse can be vegan... Like walking your dog can be vegan... Should we just let our dogs free so they can run wild in city streets? Probably not... Unfortunately, i don't see too many wild dog packs or wild horses anymore so they have become pets for the most part... I don't think a loving horse owner riding their horse is a bad thing... I think the horse carriages are disgusting... or leaving a horse to rot in a stable is just as bad... Or pony rides... Many horses are pets now a days like dogs, they deserve love and respect and exercise... I guess it would be kind of cruel to ride the horse if you were really fat... I remember we went horse riding in Oregon when I was younger (not vegan BTW) and the horse bucked my dad's fat ass off LOL!
I remember we went horse riding in Oregon when I was younger (not vegan BTW) and the horse bucked my dad's fat ass off LOL!
Who says horses can't communicate just 'cause they're nonverbal?! ;D
I think that here, the biggest issue is how the horse is trained to carry a rider. This training process, in a lot of cases, is teaching the animal to deal with things like bits, girth, and added weight which aren't natural to young animals and which they don't actually like much. Many horses who react negatively to their riders with misbehavior or do things that are 'unsightly' (for show horses), such as carrying the head too high or low result in the horse being put in further restrictive gear.
I rode for many years before going vegan, and I loved it, and was able to bond with many horses, but I feel that showing and posture training are not realistically humane activities. I do feel that it is vegan to adopt or purchase a retired show horse, which can prevent it from a horrible death. With a respectful relationship and no pressure to perfection, I think that it is possible for riding to be a mutually enjoyable experience, but if you buy a horse just for your own amusement and not because you see one in need of a loving and trustful environment, it is a very thin line to exploitation.
I have also worked for an organization that uses retired horses as therapy animals for people of with physical and mental problems. The horses did light work walking with these people, and the relationship between the two was really beautiful!
If a horse is uncomfortable with a rider on its back, it will let them know very quickly .... it will buck them off.
Nothing wrong with riding horses as long as the animals are well cared for and people use common sense as to how much weight they place on the animal.
For instance, Rosie O'donnel should NOT attempt to ride a Shetland Pony :o :-D
I think that here, the biggest issue is how the horse is trained to carry a rider. This training process, in a lot of cases, is teaching the animal to deal with things like bits, girth, and added weight which aren't natural to young animals and which they don't actually like much. Many horses who react negatively to their riders with misbehavior or do things that are 'unsightly' (for show horses), such as carrying the head too high or low result in the horse being put in further restrictive gear.
I rode for many years before going vegan, and I loved it, and was able to bond with many horses, but I feel that showing and posture training are not realistically humane activities. I do feel that it is vegan to adopt or purchase a retired show horse, which can prevent it from a horrible death. With a respectful relationship and no pressure to perfection, I think that it is possible for riding to be a mutually enjoyable experience, but if you buy a horse just for your own amusement and not because you see one in need of a loving and trustful environment, it is a very thin line to exploitation.
I have also worked for an organization that uses retired horses as therapy animals for people of with physical and mental problems. The horses did light work walking with these people, and the relationship between the two was really beautiful!
i really agree with this... i have been thinking about this post for awhile... as i think back the "horse camp" i went to for a few summers as a kid was definitely not vegan... i like the idea of rescuing a horse and riding it (if you're not a total fat ass) for both you and the horses enjoyment...
looking back, i took advantage of horses who were definitely not happy... horses in mexico on the beach (i actually remember feeling bad for them), "horse camp"... i remember in horse camp how they taught you to kick the horse when riding it to make it move... that is definitely NOT OK :(
i can see how most forms of horse riding are definitely not vegan!
If a horse is uncomfortable with a rider on its back, it will let them know very quickly .... it will buck them off.
Yes, it will. But horses are usually punished for doing this and otherwise showing their discomfort as it can be dangerous for the humans. A barn I once rode at got rid of a horse after it reared off a rider, and because this is dangerous behavior, horses who do these things are usually sold to auctions and in the most likely situation, slaughter.
Just because the horse *can* buck off a rider doesn't mean that the people involved will react to it with compassion instead of anger.
I personally do not think horse riding is vegan; I think arguing that the horse is happy is ignoring the fact that it's something of sole benefit to the human. Horses can exercise (more easily) without a rider, and do enjoy running... without a rider. Considering the amount of training it takes, I don't think it's worth it, even if in the end the horse seems ok with a rider. You can have a horse as a companion without straddling her/his back.
Even with horse companions, though, it seems like many don't have that great of care. Yeah, they might not have colic, but a horse can have all sorts of "aberrant" behavior that indicates her/his social needs are not being met. At least, the ones we see at the equestrian center - people keep them there in separate stalls, who knows how often they come around, and the horses don't really interact much. Most of them had something going on - cribbing, self-mutilation, all sorts of things - and this is a more "upscale" facility with wealthy clients. Well, maybe that's the issue. Maybe if you live with your horse it's different.
Either way, horse riding's not helping the horse, not necessary, why bother?
I think most folks who don't think it's 'vegan' have never kept happy horses!
I know an Appaloosa named Cha-Chi. She has the run of 40 acres, which she generously shares with a couple of humans, a dog, a cat, & some deer... when the humans have parties, she comes & hangs out with the guests in the 'patio' area, even when there's a loud local band (which there frequently is -- artist family, saynamore saynamore!)... she's been known to follow particularly intoxicated revellers about for protracted periods throughout the evening, to see what they might do; drunk humans are funny! Whenever there's something unusual going on, on the property -- like when they had a busted water main, and had to do a lot of digging to find the break -- she spent the day standing by, curiously watching the humans, head cocked, enjoying the occasional ear scratch as someone walked past to get more PVC from the shed or something, enjoying the spectacle... oh yeah, and sometimes she & her friend Alice go trail riding with friends -- in which Chach socializes with horsey-peers, gets to graze sweet off-property clovers, and generally has a fabulous time.
Sorry, but... that's a happy animal! Anyone who says different -- not trying to offend or anything -- but they don't know what they're talking about. Any domestic animal can be treated badly by humans; unfortunately, this occurs far too often. But the fact that some people abuse their pet dogs doesn't make it wrong for me to have pet dogs; the fact that some humans treat riding horses badly doesn't mean that riding horses is bad. I think that's an uninformed view.
Yeah, but a well-kept, happy horse does not need to be ridden. One could just have a horse as a pet.
You can keep a happy husky dog without using them as a sled dog.
No, it doesn't 'need' to be; but it can be enjoyable for both horse & rider, especially if it's a solo horse who enjoys outing with other equines... if it makes everybody happy, including the critter, I just think it's silly to get worked up about how folks shouldn't do it. That seems to be completely divorced from the reality of the situation, to me.
Like with anything else, I think there's not 'one right answer' to the initial question here... Seems to me it can go either way, depending on the specific circumstances involved. Sometimes, it's clearly not horse-friendly; but sometimes it is. One-size answers don't fit all, for this & many issues! That's how it looks to me, anyway.
a horse can socialize with other horses without a rider, though. i think the horse enjoys being out, walking/running, and socializing (with humans, horses, both, etc), not necessarily the riding itself.
Horses are freakin' expensive to care for, tho; and if you can only afford space/ feed/ vet care for ONE, it can NOT socialize w/ others except on outings... and if horse-friends live far away, meet-in-the-middle trail rides can be very enjoyable for all parties. My point is, unless you know the horses & humans in question, no one has any business saying whether one scenario is always better than the other... there are too many variables you just can't know, unless it's your situation.
Well, for those who thing that horseback riding is not vegan, I have another question, you must also think that seeing eye dogs, or using dogs or other animals to help the disabled is not vegan either?
So if a blind person was vegan, that person shouldn't have a seeing eye dog?
If you think about it, us humans as a whole are "disabled". We are slow, week, don't hear well, etc. When we ride a horse, we borrow their abilities, we become faster, stronger and hear better because you know it when a horse hears something you don't, their ears go up and they look in that direction. On the other hand, the horse borrows our intellegence, we can reason, we know when something is dangerous and can show the horse, such as crossing a bridge. We help them by providing them shelter, medicine when they are sick, food, excercise and they help us by letting us borrow their abilities. Humans and horses are like humans and dogs, they are not simply pets, they are partners! It is the same as a blind person with a seeing eye dog.
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