I have heard this argument before from my meat eating friends, that is, why would I want to eat vegan food that is shaped into patties etc.  like meat, and i just had a new idea. That is that cows don't really come in the shape of patties of chickens as nuggets, they are formed into those shapes. It is like one of you responding wrote saying that they might not like their vegies shaped like a cow's head. I am sure people have been making their vegies into patty shapes as food for a long time. I was eating falafels just today which have been made for centuries. But as to eating food that is made to look just like bacon, for example, that is another question which everyone has answered well.

Eating tofu shaped like a turkey does no harm to any turkey!  :D

That's a bit of an uninformed statement.

Alot of the world's soy is grown in Asia and South America where it was once lush forest housing LOTS of animals, that are all dead now and all the ones left have no place to live.
Let alone the workers that are exploited
...Blah blah stupid hippie  :P

I generally eat that type of thing for convenience at bbq's.
My mum has this awsome ability to host a bbq assuring me that there will vegan stuff there, and then when I get there it's lettuce leaves and puttanesca pasta (which has anchovies, ya bitch!). So I've learned to make a batch of veggie patties.
But I don't really ever eat the store-bought veggie patties etc.

yes, but something like 85% of the soy grown in the world is grown just to feed animals (livestock).  Only about 6 % is used to actually feed humans. The missing percentage is probably used for products or in processed foods.

I hate when people try to blame vegans for deforestation. It's hardly the case. I stand by the fact that eating tofu does not harm turkeys.

I think spreading information about soy eating vegans being harmful to the environment is misinformed.

http://www.vegansworldnetwork.org/vw_2009_0414.php

yes, but something like 85% of the soy grown in the world is grown just to feed animals (livestock).  Only about 6 % is used to actually feed humans. The missing percentage is probably used for products or in processed foods.

I hate when people try to blame vegans for deforestation. It's hardly the case. I stand by the fact that eating tofu does not harm turkeys.

I think spreading information about soy eating vegans being harmful to the environment is misinformed.

http://www.vegansworldnetwork.org/vw_2009_0414.php

Right on!

Thanks Jessicita!  :)>>>I was starting to think that everyone thought I was uninformed. :(

I agree with you, l2a! 

It is totally misguided to say that vegans are responsible for deforestation.  If you look at all the soy used, like you say, most of it goes to livestock, and TONS of it goes to processed foods!  Vegans used the least farmland, period.  And if we want to have food, face it, we're going to have to clear a few forests.  Responisibly, we should hope.

Trying to argue that tofurkey actually DOES harm to a turkey is useless and confusing to the average consumer.  There is no doubt that veganism is the best feasible route for the average environmentalist/humanitarian today.  Let's try to go forwards, not back ourselves into a corner.

So what is so bad about veg*ns wanting to emulate the taste of meat?
There is no question about cakes, brownies, etc. without the eggs and milk and other dairy products, so why are many so quick to question hamburgers, sausage, etc. without the meat?

Good point!  Personally, I think it's because meat-eaters expect veg*ns to be "grossed out" by meat.  I have had MANY people at my work say things like, "Sorry, Jessica - this probably really grosses you out - but the other day, I was at Restaurant X, and I ordered a big juicy steak" blah blah, and proceed to talk about meat with a group of people.  Or maybe it's something like, "You probably wouldn't like it because it has meat in it, but my mom makes this hamburger casserole"...

It seems that a lot of people don't understand that most vegans don't stop eating meat because they hate they taste; they do it for other, "deeper" reasons, like concern for animals & the environment.  It doesn't "gross me out" when I hear people talk about meat; it upsets me because I know what those animals went through to be turned into food for that person's plate.  So, once people understand that, I think eating a faux hamburger or a plant-based hot dog or whatever makes a lot more sense to them.  When they have the perspective that meat is "disgusting" to vegans (based on taste, texture, etc.), there is probably a disconnect in their brains like, "Wait, I thought they didn't like meat?  Why are they eating that veggie hamburger?  They must really be deprived most of the time if they wish they could eat actual meat!"  ::)

I agree with you, l2a! 

It is totally misguided to say that vegans are responsible for deforestation.  If you look at all the soy used, like you say, most of it goes to livestock, and TONS of it goes to processed foods!  Vegans used the least farmland, period.  And if we want to have food, face it, we're going to have to clear a few forests.  Responisibly, we should hope.

Trying to argue that tofurkey actually DOES harm to a turkey is useless and confusing to the average consumer.  There is no doubt that veganism is the best feasible route for the average environmentalist/humanitarian today.  Let's try to go forwards, not back ourselves into a corner.

I wasn't saying that vegans are responsible for deforestation.
I was just saying I think that mass-produced anything is bullshit and, most likely, an animal was unneccessarily killed along the way.

"There is no doubt that veganism is the best feasible route for the average environmentalist/humanitarian today"

I guess that's pretty true, and mostly agree with you, but I believe that capitalism is directly responsible for (atleast the industrialisation) of animal murder and therefore prefer to eat not 100% vegan dumpstered food rather than purchased vegan food.
But that's my opinion. And I am aware that not everyone is able to dumpster or live soley of dumpstered food (that is hard, even in a great dumpstering community). Or that everyone even wants to dumpster, of course.

I'm sorry for sounding harsh or righteous, I wasn't trying to blame anyone for deforestation.
Especially when I think that veganism is a moral step in the right direction.
I was just trying to remind everyone that not everything is as simple as "good" and "bad".

With about 7 billion people in the world, it's not possible to avoid mass production as we all can't have responsible farms.  However, if everyone went vegan deforestation wouldn't be an issue.

Exactly.  Mass produced stuff is REALITY.  If everyone were to buy everything locally, there wouldn't be enough to go around.  And, surprise!, the small farms would morph into big ones again.  

Honestly, I have little patience for people who say how wonderful the world would be if we didn't mass produce food, and everyone grew/ate/dumpstered their own food.  Saying so comes from a serious place of privilege and smacks of a microscopic world view.  Not necessarily monetary privilege (though sometimes that is the case), but social privilege, the privilege of time, the privilege of access to such things.  Really.  We need goods and services, and we need to procure them for billions of people, and that requires resources, and always will.  Mass production isn't bullshit, it's how we get the things we need to function.

With about 7 billion people in the world, it's not possible to avoid mass production as we all can't have responsible farms.  However, if everyone went vegan deforestation wouldn't be an issue.

1. If everyone went vegan, we would have plenty of Amazon rainforest around, and would be able to use what small percentage of the world's lumber resources go into toilet paper production quite freely enough.
2. Last I checked, it's a lot easier to make recycled toilet paper than recycled feedlots. Just sayin'.

Uh.... what do you wipe your ass with??

1. If everyone went vegan, we would have plenty of Amazon rainforest around, and would be able to use what small percentage of the world's lumber resources go into toilet paper production quite freely enough.
2. Last I checked, it's a lot easier to make recycled toilet paper than recycled feedlots. Just sayin'.

Right?  I'd like to run the numbers and figure out how much fewer resources are actually used by vegans in terms of food, water, space, labor and waste production.  Guaranteed, they are orders of magnitude different.

wildeyerotgut, what is your point?  Would you like us to wipe our asses with leaves?

A sustainable society (assuming that's what we are aiming for) will never, ever, ever have zero use of resources.  At best, it will have zero NET use of resources, where we recycle all our waste materials when we are done with them.  But even that requires mass processing and production.  And those recycling processes themselves produce waste.  Waste is a reality.  Sorry.

I guess, to those who want to live with nothing mass produced, I say, you first!  Go out and live in a hut some where and eat twigs and berries.  But no using tools whose metal you didn't forge yourself, or clothing whose fabric you didn't spin and weave yourself from homegrown cotton.  And no medical treatment, because those supplies are mass produced.  That's called Little House on the Prairie.  Better yet, the stone age.  Have fun!

Also, the statement that capitalism is responsible for animal murder is just not true.  Capitalism is correlated to more animal slaughter because both are contingent on the rise of larger populations.  People have been eating animals since our emergence as a species, well before organized economic systems, let alone capitalism.