Posted by Anonymous on Sep 09, 2007 · Member since Dec 1969 · 11789 posts
Do you believe there is free will or fate is written?
Posted by Ecstatic on Sep 09, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 531 posts
I'm an atheist. So, by default, I can't believe in fate. Because fate means someone else is writing my life. Which is kind of depressing, really.
I vote free will, and I like it that way. My life is my own - to shape, form, choose, and for which to be responsible.
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Posted by Cheezees on Sep 09, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 322 posts
Errr...."fated" free will? lol ;D
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Posted by JessaCita on Sep 09, 2007 · Member since Nov 2006 · 1808 posts
I vote free will, and I like it that way. My life is my own - to shape, form, choose, and for which to be responsible.
I agree! This is actually a lot more comforting & exciting to me (personally) than the thought of "fate."
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Posted by foofie81 on Sep 09, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 577 posts
Whenever this subject comes up I am always reminded of a quote that is,
"We're all lonely for something we don't know we're lonely for. How else to explain the curious feeling that goes around feeling like missing somebody we've never even met?"
This "curious feeling" drives me crazy almost everyday. I suppose it could be considered fate in some degree....maybe? On the other hand I don't believe in any organized religion/diety of any kind, so there is absolutly no religious aspect of "fate" in my life, which would suggest I believe in free will. I just can't get over this "curious feeling"....
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Posted by yabbitgirl on Sep 09, 2007 · Member since Apr 2006 · 14266 posts
Free will. "Fate" is too easy...makes no one responsible for their actions--or the consequences thereof, which can affect others.
Foofie...follow that feeling!
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Posted by omega_h on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Jun 2007 · 15 posts
This "curious feeling" drives me crazy almost everyday. I suppose it could be considered fate in some degree....maybe? On the other hand I don't believe in any organized religion/diety of any kind, so there is absolutly no religious aspect of "fate" in my life, which would suggest I believe in free will. I just can't get over this "curious feeling"....
I'm right there with you :)
I don't believe in gods and yet I've felt something guiding my life ever since I was a child. I guess I'm still trying to figure things out.
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Posted by Storm on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Sep 2006 · 4238 posts
I suppose I believe in a little of both (soft determinism). Some of the time most of us certainly choose our own actions.
Posted by Kennedy28 on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 780 posts
Hmm...free will. I use to be a believer in Fate, but personally I believe that fate is just a means to give people hope so that they have something to look forward to in case things aren't going too well. Which is fine, but I agree, freewill is a lot more exciting...spontaneous. :)
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Posted by laurabs on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Jul 2006 · 2610 posts
This "curious feeling" drives me crazy almost everyday. I suppose it could be considered fate in some degree....maybe? On the other hand I don't believe in any organized religion/diety of any kind, so there is absolutly no religious aspect of "fate" in my life, which would suggest I believe in free will. I just can't get over this "curious feeling"....
I'm right there with you :)
I'm constantly looking for something more - something to satisfy that "curious feeling." I think it's part of being human. we just keep searching for that something.
I don't know, I think I'm in the free will bandwagon as well.
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Posted by Cephi on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Feb 2007 · 371 posts
Lots of people, here and elsewhere, respond to this question by saying why they like one answer or the other better... as in, free will gives us personal responsibility, or fate is comforting, etc... I don't understand that reasoning. What's the relevance of that? If we're trying to figure out which of the two is true, how is it relevant which of the two is comforting, or empowering, or whatever? Is that a reliable way to figure out what is true? I don't like the idea that my taxes support factory farming subsidies -- that idea is very disempowering and disturbing to me -- does that mean I shouldn't believe it? ???
Lol, sorry, that's just me pushing my agenda about responsible belief. Answering the question, I'd say neither. "Free will" has never been explained to me in a way that I think is meaningful. I think it's a nonsense phrase. I understand what it means for a person to be free, or to have freedom; I don't understand what it means for a person to have free will. But I don't believe in fate either, since random chance seems to play a role in determining the course of our lives.
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Posted by JessaCita on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Nov 2006 · 1808 posts
Lots of people, here and elsewhere, respond to this question by saying why they like one answer or the other better... as in, free will gives us personal responsibility, or fate is comforting, etc... I don't understand that reasoning. What's the relevance of that? If we're trying to figure out which of the two is true, how is it relevant which of the two is comforting, or empowering, or whatever? Is that a reliable way to figure out what is true? I don't like the idea that my taxes support factory farming subsidies -- that idea is very disempowering and disturbing to me -- does that mean I shouldn't believe it? ???
Lol, sorry, that's just me pushing my agenda about responsible belief. Answering the question, I'd say neither. "Free will" has never been explained to me in a way that I think is meaningful. I think it's a nonsense phrase. I understand what it means for a person to be free, or to have freedom; I don't understand what it means for a person to have free will. But I don't believe in fate either, since random chance seems to play a role in determining the course of our lives.
I've always understood "free will" to mean that we have complete control over what we're doing & the choices we make. Our lives haven't been "pre-written" for us by some god or supernatural force... To me, "fate" means that we have a certain destiny, and no matter what kind of choices we make, we'll end up fulfilling that destiny. If I were to believe in fate, I would believe that no matter where I lived or what "choices" I made (but then you get into the definition of "choice," and if your life is just pre-written, you're not really technically "choosing" anything...), I would still end up exactly where I am right now because it's where I'm "meant" to be. There was never really any other "choice" than the ones that I made, because those were the "choices" pre-written for me. If fate is true, I might feel like I'm making decisions, but everything I decide was the only thing I really could...
In my head, I picture "free will" as sort of an open field... I can walk anywhere, and each path will lead me to something different. It might be good, it might be bad--but it's not pre-determined. I picture "fate" as having one specific end-point--almost like just one road going through this field, instead of many paths available. I hope this makes sense... I am rushing through this explanation while looking over my shoulder for my boss. ::)
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Posted by Ecstatic on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 531 posts
I agree with JessaCita - I don't just prefer freewill, I think that's all there is.
It's all about choices, and the choices we make. If I sit on my butt at home all day ... that's where I'll continue sitting for years, until I choose to do something about it. Fate won't come along and do anything for me. There simply is no proof that it ever has.
Free will, on the other hand, is proved each time people choose paths, choose actions, choose values. These choices affect their lives, shape their lives. Free will is complete freedom in your life. You can do whatever you want with yourself and your life. If you want, you can even go out and kill people - though, of course, this choice might lead you to prison.
If we assume fate comes from a positive source, then why would people murder one another? Is fate leading them to do this? Conversely, if fate isn't ... then it means they have free will. Some may say that we can choose to ignore fate ... well, in that case, we have free will and nothing affects us which we don't first choose or do.
Either way, all roads lead back to one conclusion - free will.
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Posted by Cephi on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Feb 2007 · 371 posts
Well, here's where free will gets confusing to me. I'll use a hypothetical example. Suppose that some God or mad scientist or demon does create some being, such that the God (or whatever) lays out that being's entire future in advance. The being's future is entirely determinate. The being will experience desires and make choices, but the God planned and determined all of these desires and choices; each desire, and each choice, is "fated" (so, if you like, they aren't "real" choices). Now suppose that being is walking around, in its fated, determined way, and someone locks it up in prison. (The God, of course, knew this would happen.) The being isn't free at that point; it's in prison. It can't act on what it wants. It wants to leave, but is prevented from leaving. Then the being is freed from prison; it now can come and go as it chooses. Now the being is free, as it wasn't while it was in prison. It can now do what it wants to do. (Of course, the God decided what the creature would want to do; but that doesn't change the fact that the creature can, after being freed, do what it wants to do.) That's how I understand the word "free" -- as something like, "not prevented from doing what one wants to do". But even this determined being can be free in that sense of "free". It can do what it wants to do, once it is out of prison.
If we now say something like, "well, the creature is free (in the sense that it is no longer imprisoned), but it still doesn't have free will," that's where I get lost again. What can "free" mean besides some variation on "able to do as one pleases"? But even a fated, determined creature can be free in that sense. So what gets added when we say, "free will" rather than just "free"?
All this is (roughly) John Locke's diagnosis of the problem of "free will", and I think he got it spot on. "Free" is a word that is meaningful, but it isn't incompatible with determinism (or fate). So if "free will" just means "free", then there's no tension between being having both fate and free will. But if "free will" means something more than "free", what is the something more?
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Posted by JessaCita on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Nov 2006 · 1808 posts
If we assume fate comes from a positive source, then why would people murder one another? Is fate leading them to do this? Conversely, if fate isn't ... then it means they have free will. Some may say that we can choose to ignore fate ... well, in that case, we have free will and nothing affects us which we don't first choose or do.
Either way, all roads lead back to one conclusion - free will.
Good point! I was thinking more about this, and I think that "fate" is closely linked to things that are supposedly "meant to be." I remember when Hurricane Katrina happened (and this can be tied to pretty much any other horrific event)... I felt so upset when I would see people on the news thanking God for saving them & saying that it was a miracle & it must have been all their praying that saved them... "God was protecting me, and that's why I survived." I don't mean to sound harsh, but how self-centered can you be?? So... God chose to save you, but not thousands of other people? I'm sure many of them were praying, too... Why did a loving God decide that you were worth protecting, but not all the other wonderful people who died? You survived because you were lucky. I'm happy for you & I wish you the best, but I think it's ridiculous to think that you were somehow more worthy of living than the people who didn't... (And for the record, I have absolutely zero problems with people praying--I just don't like this way of thinking specifically.)
Also things like "soulmates." Some people believe that they are meant to be with one specific person & that they were "designed" with each other in mind. I also do not believe in this, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who are perfectly suited for each other. I could not possibly be more in love with someone than I am with my boyfriend, but I don't think we were "meant to be" before we were born. I think the lives we have chosen & the people we've become led us to each other, but there are literally millions (billions!) of other people I could have been led toward. I don't think anyone could be more perfect for me & I am absolutely happier than I've ever been, and to me, this makes it more special than finding my "soulmate." I could have completely missed Nick (my BF) in my life & ended up with someone else... But I didn't. I found him, due to our choices & simple luck. And I think that's pretty darn cool. :)
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Posted by and_it_spoke on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Dec 2005 · 893 posts
Both.
I believe there is a way to the universe. A rhythm you can sync up with. Sometimes, you have to make choice to get into that sync, and sometimes your choices get you out of sync.
I have faith there is a "way" which can be a guide. A type of fate. But I also believe you are free to reject this "way".
Yeah, simplified Taoism pretty much. Keeps me sane.
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Posted by Ecstatic on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Jul 2007 · 531 posts
If we now say something like, "well, the creature is free (in the sense that it is no longer imprisoned), but it still doesn't have free will," that's where I get lost again. What can "free" mean besides some variation on "able to do as one pleases"? But even a fated, determined creature can be free in that sense. So what gets added when we say, "free will" rather than just "free"?
All this is (roughly) John Locke's diagnosis of the problem of "free will", and I think he got it spot on. "Free" is a word that is meaningful, but it isn't incompatible with determinism (or fate). So if "free will" just means "free", then there's no tension between being having both fate and free will. But if "free will" means something more than "free", what is the something more?
I see what you mean ... my only problem with these examples is that they don't make sense in reality. We just can't prove that there is any god, creature, etc, out there. So, to theorize on free will and fate this way, we must also theorize on the existence of some "other" being writing our lives.
And I just haven't seen any proof of that. (Scientist here, lol.)
So, for me, it's all very straight forward. I think of free will as just being free. Right now, I could go out and do whatever I wanted. I choose not to do certain things because I don't want to wind up in jail, lol. The reason prisons are a punishment (IMO) is precisely because they take away one's freedom, i.e. that person proved that they couldn't take responsibility for their own freedom and make responsible choices and so now this freedom has been taken from them. I don't want that to happen. Plus, I also have my own moral compass and don't want to infringe on the rights of others. But, I've chosen this moral compass, chosen not to harm others, etc.
I personally, just don't understand the concept of fate at all. Who is deciding all of this? Why? For what purpose? If I were an all powerful god, I would be bored out of my mind with humans and writing their destiny. I'd rather let them run amuck, much more interesting that way lol.
At any rate, for me, the logical/scientific conclusion is that we are all free and all responsible for that freedom.
JessaCita - I know what you mean about soulmates! I don't believe in them either. I adore my SO - literally, just wild about him. I feel very lucky that our various choices led us to meeting. But, when people say things to me like "wow, you guys meeting was fate" or "it was meant to be" ... I cringe. It just didn't happen that way. Realistically, there are 6 billion people in the world. As much as I adore, love him and wouldn't want to be without him ... chances are there are other men out there just as compatible with me as he is. Different choices may very well have led me to one of them, instead. Or to none of them. Same goes for him. It's a moot point now, as I'm planning on hanging on to him forever ... but, whenever someone mentions fate around us, we always respond with "he/she is not the only woman/man in the world. They're not the only one for me. We choose to be together."
And, I too have often thought the same thing about tragedies like Katrina. Always when someone says "God saved me" ... I think about the other person who was probably praying just as hard and wasn't saved. I understand why people need to say it or believe it ... but, my brain is too logical, and I'm to much of a scientist to see any fact in it.
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Posted by Anonymous on Sep 10, 2007 · Member since Dec 1969 · 11789 posts
To me, free will means having a choice in how we look at things-- choosing our attitude in any and every given situation. The fact that human beings have free will doesn't mean we will, necessarily, be allowed to or be able to be free (to do what we want). Look at people born into slavery, confinement, those trapped in bodies that are unable to physically function as "normal." Those people don't have the ability to be "free," like those of us born into free societies, or with healthy bodies, or fully functioning brains, etc. But everyone has the ability to choose his or her attitude in every situation, even those happenings that are beyond our control. That's the meaning I understand of free will. It's not just a matter of being able to be physically free (unconfined) or have the opportunity to become free at some point. It's having the choice or freedom to choose any attitude we wish to.
I believe in both fate and free will. I believe "fate" throws us opportunities everyday and we have the choice whether to grasp those opportunities or let them go by. I don't believe in a fate that has a predetermined outcome.
And I agree with Jessacita and Ecstatic about the Katrina/praying example and soulmates.
I'm an atheist. So, by default, I can't believe in fate. Because fate means someone else is writing my life. Which is kind of depressing, really.
I vote free will, and I like it that way. My life is my own - to shape, form, choose, and for which to be responsible.
Errr...."fated" free will? lol ;D
I vote free will, and I like it that way. My life is my own - to shape, form, choose, and for which to be responsible.
I agree! This is actually a lot more comforting & exciting to me (personally) than the thought of "fate."
Whenever this subject comes up I am always reminded of a quote that is,
"We're all lonely for something we don't know we're lonely for. How else to explain the curious feeling that goes around feeling like missing somebody we've never even met?"
This "curious feeling" drives me crazy almost everyday. I suppose it could be considered fate in some degree....maybe? On the other hand I don't believe in any organized religion/diety of any kind, so there is absolutly no religious aspect of "fate" in my life, which would suggest I believe in free will. I just can't get over this "curious feeling"....
Free will. "Fate" is too easy...makes no one responsible for their actions--or the consequences thereof, which can affect others.
Foofie...follow that feeling!
This "curious feeling" drives me crazy almost everyday. I suppose it could be considered fate in some degree....maybe? On the other hand I don't believe in any organized religion/diety of any kind, so there is absolutly no religious aspect of "fate" in my life, which would suggest I believe in free will. I just can't get over this "curious feeling"....
I'm right there with you :)
I don't believe in gods and yet I've felt something guiding my life ever since I was a child. I guess I'm still trying to figure things out.
I suppose I believe in a little of both (soft determinism). Some of the time most of us certainly choose our own actions.
Interesting essay by David Pratt.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/freewill.htm
Hmm...free will. I use to be a believer in Fate, but personally I believe that fate is just a means to give people hope so that they have something to look forward to in case things aren't going too well. Which is fine, but I agree, freewill is a lot more exciting...spontaneous. :)
This "curious feeling" drives me crazy almost everyday. I suppose it could be considered fate in some degree....maybe? On the other hand I don't believe in any organized religion/diety of any kind, so there is absolutly no religious aspect of "fate" in my life, which would suggest I believe in free will. I just can't get over this "curious feeling"....
I'm right there with you :)
I'm constantly looking for something more - something to satisfy that "curious feeling." I think it's part of being human. we just keep searching for that something.
I don't know, I think I'm in the free will bandwagon as well.
Lots of people, here and elsewhere, respond to this question by saying why they like one answer or the other better... as in, free will gives us personal responsibility, or fate is comforting, etc... I don't understand that reasoning. What's the relevance of that? If we're trying to figure out which of the two is true, how is it relevant which of the two is comforting, or empowering, or whatever? Is that a reliable way to figure out what is true? I don't like the idea that my taxes support factory farming subsidies -- that idea is very disempowering and disturbing to me -- does that mean I shouldn't believe it? ???
Lol, sorry, that's just me pushing my agenda about responsible belief. Answering the question, I'd say neither. "Free will" has never been explained to me in a way that I think is meaningful. I think it's a nonsense phrase. I understand what it means for a person to be free, or to have freedom; I don't understand what it means for a person to have free will. But I don't believe in fate either, since random chance seems to play a role in determining the course of our lives.
Lots of people, here and elsewhere, respond to this question by saying why they like one answer or the other better... as in, free will gives us personal responsibility, or fate is comforting, etc... I don't understand that reasoning. What's the relevance of that? If we're trying to figure out which of the two is true, how is it relevant which of the two is comforting, or empowering, or whatever? Is that a reliable way to figure out what is true? I don't like the idea that my taxes support factory farming subsidies -- that idea is very disempowering and disturbing to me -- does that mean I shouldn't believe it? ???
Lol, sorry, that's just me pushing my agenda about responsible belief. Answering the question, I'd say neither. "Free will" has never been explained to me in a way that I think is meaningful. I think it's a nonsense phrase. I understand what it means for a person to be free, or to have freedom; I don't understand what it means for a person to have free will. But I don't believe in fate either, since random chance seems to play a role in determining the course of our lives.
I've always understood "free will" to mean that we have complete control over what we're doing & the choices we make. Our lives haven't been "pre-written" for us by some god or supernatural force... To me, "fate" means that we have a certain destiny, and no matter what kind of choices we make, we'll end up fulfilling that destiny. If I were to believe in fate, I would believe that no matter where I lived or what "choices" I made (but then you get into the definition of "choice," and if your life is just pre-written, you're not really technically "choosing" anything...), I would still end up exactly where I am right now because it's where I'm "meant" to be. There was never really any other "choice" than the ones that I made, because those were the "choices" pre-written for me. If fate is true, I might feel like I'm making decisions, but everything I decide was the only thing I really could...
In my head, I picture "free will" as sort of an open field... I can walk anywhere, and each path will lead me to something different. It might be good, it might be bad--but it's not pre-determined. I picture "fate" as having one specific end-point--almost like just one road going through this field, instead of many paths available. I hope this makes sense... I am rushing through this explanation while looking over my shoulder for my boss. ::)
I agree with JessaCita - I don't just prefer freewill, I think that's all there is.
It's all about choices, and the choices we make. If I sit on my butt at home all day ... that's where I'll continue sitting for years, until I choose to do something about it. Fate won't come along and do anything for me. There simply is no proof that it ever has.
Free will, on the other hand, is proved each time people choose paths, choose actions, choose values. These choices affect their lives, shape their lives. Free will is complete freedom in your life. You can do whatever you want with yourself and your life. If you want, you can even go out and kill people - though, of course, this choice might lead you to prison.
If we assume fate comes from a positive source, then why would people murder one another? Is fate leading them to do this? Conversely, if fate isn't ... then it means they have free will. Some may say that we can choose to ignore fate ... well, in that case, we have free will and nothing affects us which we don't first choose or do.
Either way, all roads lead back to one conclusion - free will.
Well, here's where free will gets confusing to me. I'll use a hypothetical example. Suppose that some God or mad scientist or demon does create some being, such that the God (or whatever) lays out that being's entire future in advance. The being's future is entirely determinate. The being will experience desires and make choices, but the God planned and determined all of these desires and choices; each desire, and each choice, is "fated" (so, if you like, they aren't "real" choices). Now suppose that being is walking around, in its fated, determined way, and someone locks it up in prison. (The God, of course, knew this would happen.) The being isn't free at that point; it's in prison. It can't act on what it wants. It wants to leave, but is prevented from leaving. Then the being is freed from prison; it now can come and go as it chooses. Now the being is free, as it wasn't while it was in prison. It can now do what it wants to do. (Of course, the God decided what the creature would want to do; but that doesn't change the fact that the creature can, after being freed, do what it wants to do.) That's how I understand the word "free" -- as something like, "not prevented from doing what one wants to do". But even this determined being can be free in that sense of "free". It can do what it wants to do, once it is out of prison.
If we now say something like, "well, the creature is free (in the sense that it is no longer imprisoned), but it still doesn't have free will," that's where I get lost again. What can "free" mean besides some variation on "able to do as one pleases"? But even a fated, determined creature can be free in that sense. So what gets added when we say, "free will" rather than just "free"?
All this is (roughly) John Locke's diagnosis of the problem of "free will", and I think he got it spot on. "Free" is a word that is meaningful, but it isn't incompatible with determinism (or fate). So if "free will" just means "free", then there's no tension between being having both fate and free will. But if "free will" means something more than "free", what is the something more?
If we assume fate comes from a positive source, then why would people murder one another? Is fate leading them to do this? Conversely, if fate isn't ... then it means they have free will. Some may say that we can choose to ignore fate ... well, in that case, we have free will and nothing affects us which we don't first choose or do.
Either way, all roads lead back to one conclusion - free will.
Good point! I was thinking more about this, and I think that "fate" is closely linked to things that are supposedly "meant to be." I remember when Hurricane Katrina happened (and this can be tied to pretty much any other horrific event)... I felt so upset when I would see people on the news thanking God for saving them & saying that it was a miracle & it must have been all their praying that saved them... "God was protecting me, and that's why I survived." I don't mean to sound harsh, but how self-centered can you be?? So... God chose to save you, but not thousands of other people? I'm sure many of them were praying, too... Why did a loving God decide that you were worth protecting, but not all the other wonderful people who died? You survived because you were lucky. I'm happy for you & I wish you the best, but I think it's ridiculous to think that you were somehow more worthy of living than the people who didn't... (And for the record, I have absolutely zero problems with people praying--I just don't like this way of thinking specifically.)
Also things like "soulmates." Some people believe that they are meant to be with one specific person & that they were "designed" with each other in mind. I also do not believe in this, but that doesn't mean that there aren't people who are perfectly suited for each other. I could not possibly be more in love with someone than I am with my boyfriend, but I don't think we were "meant to be" before we were born. I think the lives we have chosen & the people we've become led us to each other, but there are literally millions (billions!) of other people I could have been led toward. I don't think anyone could be more perfect for me & I am absolutely happier than I've ever been, and to me, this makes it more special than finding my "soulmate." I could have completely missed Nick (my BF) in my life & ended up with someone else... But I didn't. I found him, due to our choices & simple luck. And I think that's pretty darn cool. :)
Both.
I believe there is a way to the universe. A rhythm you can sync up with. Sometimes, you have to make choice to get into that sync, and sometimes your choices get you out of sync.
I have faith there is a "way" which can be a guide. A type of fate. But I also believe you are free to reject this "way".
Yeah, simplified Taoism pretty much. Keeps me sane.
If we now say something like, "well, the creature is free (in the sense that it is no longer imprisoned), but it still doesn't have free will," that's where I get lost again. What can "free" mean besides some variation on "able to do as one pleases"? But even a fated, determined creature can be free in that sense. So what gets added when we say, "free will" rather than just "free"?
All this is (roughly) John Locke's diagnosis of the problem of "free will", and I think he got it spot on. "Free" is a word that is meaningful, but it isn't incompatible with determinism (or fate). So if "free will" just means "free", then there's no tension between being having both fate and free will. But if "free will" means something more than "free", what is the something more?
I see what you mean ... my only problem with these examples is that they don't make sense in reality. We just can't prove that there is any god, creature, etc, out there. So, to theorize on free will and fate this way, we must also theorize on the existence of some "other" being writing our lives.
And I just haven't seen any proof of that. (Scientist here, lol.)
So, for me, it's all very straight forward. I think of free will as just being free. Right now, I could go out and do whatever I wanted. I choose not to do certain things because I don't want to wind up in jail, lol. The reason prisons are a punishment (IMO) is precisely because they take away one's freedom, i.e. that person proved that they couldn't take responsibility for their own freedom and make responsible choices and so now this freedom has been taken from them. I don't want that to happen. Plus, I also have my own moral compass and don't want to infringe on the rights of others. But, I've chosen this moral compass, chosen not to harm others, etc.
I personally, just don't understand the concept of fate at all. Who is deciding all of this? Why? For what purpose? If I were an all powerful god, I would be bored out of my mind with humans and writing their destiny. I'd rather let them run amuck, much more interesting that way lol.
At any rate, for me, the logical/scientific conclusion is that we are all free and all responsible for that freedom.
JessaCita - I know what you mean about soulmates! I don't believe in them either. I adore my SO - literally, just wild about him. I feel very lucky that our various choices led us to meeting. But, when people say things to me like "wow, you guys meeting was fate" or "it was meant to be" ... I cringe. It just didn't happen that way. Realistically, there are 6 billion people in the world. As much as I adore, love him and wouldn't want to be without him ... chances are there are other men out there just as compatible with me as he is. Different choices may very well have led me to one of them, instead. Or to none of them. Same goes for him. It's a moot point now, as I'm planning on hanging on to him forever ... but, whenever someone mentions fate around us, we always respond with "he/she is not the only woman/man in the world. They're not the only one for me. We choose to be together."
And, I too have often thought the same thing about tragedies like Katrina. Always when someone says "God saved me" ... I think about the other person who was probably praying just as hard and wasn't saved. I understand why people need to say it or believe it ... but, my brain is too logical, and I'm to much of a scientist to see any fact in it.
To me, free will means having a choice in how we look at things-- choosing our attitude in any and every given situation. The fact that human beings have free will doesn't mean we will, necessarily, be allowed to or be able to be free (to do what we want). Look at people born into slavery, confinement, those trapped in bodies that are unable to physically function as "normal." Those people don't have the ability to be "free," like those of us born into free societies, or with healthy bodies, or fully functioning brains, etc. But everyone has the ability to choose his or her attitude in every situation, even those happenings that are beyond our control. That's the meaning I understand of free will. It's not just a matter of being able to be physically free (unconfined) or have the opportunity to become free at some point. It's having the choice or freedom to choose any attitude we wish to.
I believe in both fate and free will. I believe "fate" throws us opportunities everyday and we have the choice whether to grasp those opportunities or let them go by. I don't believe in a fate that has a predetermined outcome.
And I agree with Jessacita and Ecstatic about the Katrina/praying example and soulmates.
Both! Free will is saying I am going on vacation on such and such a day. Fate is when the plane crashes. Guess, I believe in both.
Or....free will is saying you are going on vacation on such and such a date but you sleep in...and the plane crashes. You never made it to the plane.
Interesting topic.
Shit Happens. :)