Iffy Topics
Hi everyone,
I've been hanging around vegweb for a few years, though I just became a lacto-ovo vegetarian earlier this year (and just officially joined the website today, haha). I originally stopped eating meat because of 1. the negative environmental effects 2. animal cruelty 3. many of my friends are vegetarian/vegan so I was shown that the lifestyle is a viable one.
Really I think I've had no trouble refraining from eating meat because it sickens me to think of how many animals were being killed and tortured just to feed me, just like thinking about the non-biodegradable trash that fills countless landfills makes me recycle everything possible and consume less.
I didn't realize the complication behind the food and meat industry before I became a vegetarian, so I'm grateful that I'm more informed of the corruption of the industry and hidden ingredients. But there are some things that I can't make up my mind on:
1.) Gelatin and bone-char. I know that of course it's not vegetarian, since it's made from bones and tendons and all those nasty slaughter-house by-products. But if these things really are by-products, would it really affect the meat industry by avoiding them?
2.) Used clothes. I buy most of my clothes used, or get as hand-me-downs (I'd say 90%). Would buying a wool coat or shoes containing leather at a thrift store be considered vegan? While I'd never something as disgusting as a mink coat from a thrift store, I don't see the harm in throwing away the wool blanket I've had since I was little, or not buying used shoes (especially at Goodwill or the Salvation Army, where the proceeds benefit charity) that contain some animal products. Same goes for food. Lots of bakeris throw out perfectly good food at the end of the day just because it isn't 'fresh' anymore. I occasionally dumpster-dive at the local bagel place as they throw out insane amounts of good bagels. Would eating non-vegan bagels that would otherwise go to waste be considered vegan?
3.) Then there's all the other products like glue, film, etc that isn't vegan. What would the effects be for not buying these things?
4.) Social situations. Is it really that bad to accept a muffin, for example, containing eggs and/or dairy from a friend?
I realize that I may come off as ignorant, rude, or callous, but I just want to see what others think. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just want get a different perspective. Personally, I'd like to go vegan, but I think the transition will have to be a very slow one for me. Small steps...
The main answer I could come up with for the 'iffy' questions is that by refusing these things, you're rasing awareness of veganism and vegetarianism. This ties into the fact that if slaughterhouses didn't exist, we'd find alternatives to gelatin, bone char, etc (or at least use them more often)
It's also easy to think that just not eating meat is enough, but when you think about the horrible effects of the dairy industry, and the treatment of egg-laying hens...terrifying.
Okay, sorry once again if I offended anyone. I just really want to know what you guys think!
Thank you!
I realize that I may come off as ignorant, rude, or callous, but I just want to see what others think. I'm not trying to offend anyone, just want get a different perspective.
You aren't at all, quite the contrary, you have really thought this out. In response to your questions, there are MY answers...
1.) I would say that even if it IS a byproduct that is not otherwise used, you are supporting the industry by purchasing the items, therefore keeping the meat industry more alive.
2.) Used clothing is a very personal thing. Since your number one is environment, I would say you are probably similar to me in that you like to consume as little as possible. In these cases it is great to get things from the thrift store because no new products have to be created. The only iffy thing about this (in my opinion) is say someone was looking for the perfect leather boots and looked at the thrift store and you got their perfect pair a week previously... they would go out and buy a new pair possibly, which would be bad. Problem with this is you have no way of knowing, so it is a personal choice. Personally, I really don't buy anything of that sort anymore because I have realized I have plenty. Oh and I just realized the dumpster diving thing. I would say you could call yourself a vegan in terms of money you put into the industries.... but I don't know if I would consider it vegan to eat a non-vegan item, even if in the trash. I would consider it a 'freegan' thing to do, which is just as great for the environment :).
3.) This is where it gets into "the only perfect vegan is a dead vegan." You can't do everything, you just have to do everything it is in your power to do.
4.) It ain't that hard to decline after a while. Instead, you can offer to make a vegan version for everyone :).
I hope I answered most of your questions. Thank you for providing me a procrastination tool :)... and WELCOME!
I think veganism is best conceived of as an ideal, that we can aim to meet as well as we can, rather than a set of rules. All the particular acts you mention are, I think, technically un-vegan, but that doesn't mean that a vegan "can't" do them and still be vegan (any more than telling an occasional lie means that one is not an honest person).
One thing that I think should be kept in mind, though, (which Hespedal beat me to pointing out! :)) is that animals are not kept and killed for meat. They are kept and killed for MONEY. Anything that pays the animal keepers/killers for their keeping/killing supports the industry. It really does not matter whether one is buying meat or some other part of the carcass. Of course, buying (nonvegan) glue contributes less money than buying a big ol' steak, but that just means that buying a container of glue is on a level with buying a very small portion of meat. Aside from the difference of degree, though, there is no difference in kind. And buying (for example) large amounts of glue would support the industry more than buying a small amount of meat.
But again, we live in societies that make "pure" veganism simply impossible. And anyway, blind adherence to "pure" veganism can be shortsighted. Like Hespedal pointed out, buying a secondhand wool scarf may (very minutely) support the wool industry, but buying a brand new acrylic scarf might be worse for the environment and support sweatshop labor besides. And on both moral and environmental counts, I think freeganism trumps veganism, although I do not practice the former myself.
So anyway, all that is just to say that there are really complex issues, I don't think there are any clear or obvious answers to the questions you ask, and as long as we consume reflectingly and compassionately we're doing the best we can :)
3.) This is where it gets into "the only perfect vegan is a dead vegan."
lol, exactly.
welcome!
as far as how far you take your veganism, it is up to you. there are no police to come take you away, but in basic terms: vegetarian does not consume meat (inc. fish!, gelatin, etc) but may consume eggs or dairy.
the term *vegan* means no consumption of animal products, by-products (inc. meats, eggs, dairy, honey, etc)
i dont think its vegan to consume nonvegan items in a social situation, or when its convienient. certainly veganism is not easy, and these situations definately will show up.. you shouldnt sacrifice what you believe in to placate a situation or another person (ie: thanksgiving dinner)
as for buying used clothing....there are many vegan ppl out there who are still using old wool sweaters, leather shoes, etc. so the question is, whats worse? wasting and buying (possibly) unnecessarily new? or just use up until you *need* to buy new.
buying byproducts of the animal industry ultimately does help support the industry. all of one area's "waste" goes to be sold off...like gelatin, rennet, even poop....our veggies are likely grown w/ manure.
there is no way to get around it all.
but i do think its important to strive for veganism, imo.
perhaps you are more into "freeganism"... trying to be sure that things are wasted. b/c ultimately, if you can remove yourself from the cycle of consumption, it would mean that you wouldnt be supporting that which you dont believe in, at least financially. but you may still be supporting morally.
you just have to ask yourself what your motivations behind veg'nism are and decide for yourself.
(sorry if this was gibberish, its hella late!)
I think you brought up a lot of excellent questions. Most of them have been discussed here to one degree, but it is really cool to see them all together. I think an important thing to remember is that it is not all or nothing. If you accidentally (or purposely) consume something once or twice, it doesn't mean you should quit altogether. I, personally, have gone back and forth between vegetarian and vegan (and even had a seafood relapse) a couple times since this past spring.You just need to think about these things and decide what is important to you.
Right now, I decided to call myself a vegetarian to others, but I eat vegan 90% of the time. The main reason why I am not vegan is because of your question 4, social situations. I tend to go out to eat a lot and go over other people's houses for parties, and I would feel very rude drilling them on the ingredients of everything that is offered to me, but that is how I feel. Out at a restaurant I'm fine with asking for a veggie burger without cheese, but it doesn't bother me that there may be eggs, butter , or milk in the roll. Meanwhile if I buy rolls at a store, I will read the ingredients to make sure there are not any animal products in it because I am more in control of my choices there and have more options.
I avoid gelatin and bone char to the best of my knowledge, I also don't buy new leather, but I still use old leather purses and shoes that I have. If it was my inclination to dumpster dive for bagels, I'd probably still do that, but I think a lot of bagels are vegan anyway. I'm not sure how I would feel about the salvation army question.
To be honest, I don't think I needed glue or film since going veg, so this hasn't come up as an issue. My husband has a digital camera he uses for work that we would use if we wanted to take any pictures.
I think you need to conduct your life in a way that YOU feel comfortable...not how others view you.
I think it's important to not get caught up in catagorization. Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing leather (used or new) or eating something that I knew had eggs/dairy/other animal product. I guess that would technically make me "vegan". However, if you want to strive to reduce your use of animal products (even if you aren't completely "vegan"--whatever that classifies as), it still makes a HUGE impact! I guess what I want to say is, if you want to avoid eggs/dairy/other animal products, you can do so (which will have an impact) without being a "vegan" per say. Does that make sense? I guess I just don't like catagories--it doesn't really matter what you call yourself; it's your actions that matter.
Thank you for your thoughtful responses!
I'm not particularly concerned with 'labels' either, more with how much of an impact certain aspects of being vegan or vegetarian actually make.
Sometimes it's hard just to tell what to really focus on. Reading labels to avoid 'produced on equipment that also handles milk' for example: will it really do any good to not buy those products just because they're not 100% vegan?
When I told my dad not to buy me anything with gelatin in it anymore, he responded with, "so now you're not eating animals that are dead anyway?" I couldn't really defend my choice, aside from the thought of eating boiled slaughterhouse byproducts is disgusting!
Also, I know I'm lacto-ovo, but I'm trying to get a feel for a dairy-free and egg-free life before I transition into it. Like many people on this site, I avoid eating eggs and cheese by themselves but if eggs or milk end up in bakery or bread I don't mind too much. I buy soy milk for daily use but often put half-and-half in my coffee.
Ooh, that was another thing I was thinking about. Although no dairy is obviously the better option, do you suppose it would be better to use 'non-dairy creamer' with 2% of caseinate in it than to just use plain milk? Just a thought.
But I think you've convinced me that buying slaughterhouse byproducts does in fact support the meat industry. Thank you for your opinions and knowledge!
about accepting the muffin...
this happened to me when i first went vegan. namely, with my mom. it just took a while for her to get it. thankfully, my brother was always around who would willingly "dispose of" any non-vegan item I didn't want :p It's happened with other people (but rarely. like someone brings food to work, went to the effort to make it "vegan", but doesn't know that butter ain't vegan!). i've tried to keep my mouth shut, let someone else eat it, and i figure the muffin-giver will figure it out in my future rantings about veganism. of course, the work situation usually is accompanied by some smart a** saying "what, she can't have it, butter's not vegan!" (i wasn't going to say anything damnit!). usually the "muffin situation" is with friends and family, and it's just a matter of time for them to figure it out.
i'm always iffy about bone char. admittedly, i still used powdered sugar because i can't find an unprocessed alternative (my food processor can't get it that fine, and i have no idea how much cornstarch is in that stuff anyway). i use evaporated cane juice otherwise. i heard that actually municipal water is filtered with bone car (?), so we definitely can't avoid everything entirely. and to drink "spring" water is likely worse for the world than for you to give up and support some bone char (plus, it's probably filtered the same way anyway!).
What's freegan? I never heard that!
I was reading something recently about some buddhists who abstain from meat but if its given as alms then its okay, which is what the buddha said. It seems to be like the used clothes and the muffin. And also not to go to extremes since intense puritanism can lead to its own kinds of cruelty.
Personally I'm really bad with clothes and other "by products" and don't think about that much. Maybe mostly because I got into veg* more for health. Maybe its time to start paying mote attention to the other things.
It's good to see you Trisa!!!
Here's some info on freegans.. http://freegan.info/
Thanks for the link! I'm going to have to read that, it looks cool. And its good to be "back"... I really love this board. You all are so awesome. :D :D
I think the whole vegan lifestyle/diet is really very individual. I know there are those organizations who have their philosophical treatises on being a vegan. But, in my experience, lifestyles of vegans vary across the board.
I went vegan for health and ecological reasons, first. But, I also think all animals should be allowed to live out their lives the way they're meant to be. However, unlike many other vegans, I have no problem with people eating animals from small, sustainable, local, organic farms.
I would buy leather or wool from thrift stores. Ecologically, this is a better choice than fake leather which never decomposes. Plus, in a thrift store I'm not supporting the industry in terms of animal products.
I try to avoid animal by products in my products, lol, as much as possible. Mainly for my health. I think I'm at the 99% mark in avoiding animal products in my things. I definitely avoid eggs, dairy, etc., as I think this is stuff that humans really do not need in their bodies.
In terms of the economic impacts ... in terms of avoiding bone char - there is none. Bone char is used in oil refineries. So, avoiding stuff with bone char makes next to nothing of an impact economically as the oil industry is paramount. And, then, the other major source would be sugar ... more restaurants buy sugar than individuals. And they don't buy vegan.
But, like I said, since I'm in it for health, I don't eat processed sugar in the first place. So it's a moot point for me. Still, I do think the vegan sugar as a result is just an overpriced gimmick.
Social situations - my etiquette has been SO ingrained in me that I find it impossible to completely refuse dinner at someone's house. I will not eat meat, ever. But, I do eat the side dishes even though I know they may contain eggs/dairy. I was raised in the concept that, unless you're allergic, you do not shove your diet onto someone else's dinner party. Again, that's just me ... and I'm a recluse. So, I'm in such a situation, maybe, once a year. And, even then, my partner is very good at mentioning, casually, that I'm vegan to his friends.
If someone gives me something, I take it, say thank you, and pass it on to another person. Of course, I always say how delicious the cookies, muffins, etc., were. ;)
...I would buy leather or wool from thrift stores. Ecologically, this is a better choice than fake leather which never decomposes. Plus, in a thrift store I'm not supporting the industry in terms of animal products.
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Social situations - my etiquette has been SO ingrained in me that I find it impossible to completely refuse dinner at someone's house. I will not eat meat, ever. But, I do eat the side dishes even though I know they may contain eggs/dairy...
I came in here to say these two basic things....Cephi, hespedal, and LucidAnne stated pretty much everything (and then some) that I'd have advised you. Thank you, friends. :)
but aside from that, I do tend to believe that it is better to recycle/reuse products that are already made (as in, items from thrift stores, gifts) than to create the need for more production, especially that non eco friendly fake leather, for instance. I have my limits, personally....When shopping at a thrift store, I would probably never buy a fur coat/trim if I could help it, just because it is an obvious animal byproduct, and would essentially "promote" wearing the fur of other animals as being acceptable to me, and the fur is completely unnecessary...whereas a used pair of shoes made from leather essentially depend on that leather for its entire structure, plus it isn't as "obvious" to others as a fashion statement.
I know that seems inconsistent of me, but that's how I feel about used items: I didn't pay for it originally (no direct support to animal byproduct industry), and if I can get more use out of it (recycle/reuse), all the better. If it is a more obvious animal product, I want to avoid looking like I'm wearing an animal. But if it is less obvious, I can still acknowledge where it came from, but know that others *might* not see me as an animal-wearer. If someone were to ask about a pair of used leather shoes I'm wearing, challenging my lifestyle choices, I'll be honest about their origin, and explain my case. Anyone who would like to argue me on this is more than welcome, I'd be open to changing this view if I see new light shed on the matter.
And lastly, I too was raised to be courteous to others who offer me food...It's a lot easier to decline meat (which I always do) than a vegetarian item that includes eggs or dairy. In my case, I sometimes find myself in dining situations where someone was considerate enough to make sure I had a meat-free option, and it's pretty much my ONLY option, so I don't have the heart to turn them down if it isn't vegan. (that's what's really holding me back these days)
but again, like others have said, you must decide how far you can possibly take your actions. Consider your own values, as well as the facts presented regarding ecological/environmental/health effects, and then make your decisions as best you can. Again, you can't help some things, you can only do your best to try. I'm pretty sure that whatever efforts you do make will be worthwhile.
These are good questions and important to know the answer to as a starting veg*n. So welcome and great questions!
I live by the rule "The only perfect vegan is a dead vegan".
Am I a perfect vegan? No. Not even close. Do I try to be? As much as possible and still live the life I do. My husband and I are Rennies, so I have Renaissance garb that is very non-vegan. This is my compromise. Some people would not make it, but I have gotten away from all leather products except for boots. I do have silk and wool though, so it is not a perfect situation for a perfect vegan.
Do I still call myself a vegan? Yes. Because I have IBS and my body does not digest meat, dairy, eggs or by products. While I occasionally slip up with a less than 2% of egg whites or casien, I never willingly eat any animal or by product. Trust me, I can tell when it is slipped to me. :(
Do what you feel is right for you. Should someone question your desire to pass on the bone char or a muffin just tell them "This is right for me." and let it go. You choice is not an attack on their choice. I think some people forget that.
Should someone question your desire to pass on the bone char or a muffin just tell them "This is right for me." and let it go. You choice is not an attack on their choice. I think some people forget that.
I like that: "This is right for me." Short and simple and doesn't allow for much of a defensive comeback from whomever (whoever? I think it's whom...oh well ::) ) you are talking to. I will remember that :)
I've posted this link before, but it pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject and says it better than I can (plus this guy has way more credibility than I have): http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/path.html#veganexample
P.S. - Nice to see you Trisa!
As others have said, you bring up several good points.
From my perspective, your lifestyle should reflect what you believe. Be it faith, diet, morals, etc. you should live your life in a way that clearly conveys what you believe and what you stand for.
Take me, for example. I'm an apprentice horse trainer, currently raising/training my yearling. Now, I often work other people's horses, and that nearly always involves riding in leather saddles. I don't own the saddles, so there's no contradiction with my lifestyle. However, one of my barn friends gave me a saddle, which is made almost entirely of leather. She was going to throw away/give away anyway, thought of me, and gave it to me. Did I reject it? Of course not! It's an extremely useful item that I plan to use until it falls apart. It saved me a lot of money, time, and gas, and saved her gas and time as well. The exchange benefitted both of us, and more cattle didn't have to be killed to supply me with a saddle.
Ultimately, to me, it boils down to this: If you're inclined to dumpster dive for bagels, go for it. It saves them from being wasted, gives you food, and sounds like an enjoyable pursuit to boot.
And, of course, I have to add a final sentiment:
"The only true vegan is a dead vegan."
Do what you feel is right for you. Should someone question your desire to pass on the bone char or a muffin just tell them "This is right for me." and let it go. You choice is not an attack on their choice. I think some people forget that.
Yeah, that's my mantra. I sure would love it if more people were veg*n, but I try not to judge, so when someone asks me if it offends me if they eat meat, all I say is "This is what's right for me."
Do what you feel is right for you. Should someone question your desire to pass on the bone char or a muffin just tell them "This is right for me." and let it go. You choice is not an attack on their choice. I think some people forget that.
Yeah, that's my mantra. I sure would love it if more people were veg*n, but I try not to judge, so when someone asks me if it offends me if they eat meat, all I say is "This is what's right for me."
Its such a nice mantra, and nice way to live. I love that.
I've posted this link before, but it pretty much sums up my feelings on the subject and says it better than I can (plus this guy has way more credibility than I have): http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/path.html#veganexample
P.S. - Nice to see you Trisa!
Thanks for this link. I like the definitions of a practical vegan & symbolic vegan.
Thanks for your feedback. I was under the impression that strict vegans/vegetarians would look down upon my 'impure' practice, but you've proven me wrong. Thank you so much for that! I think I'll try to adopt the "This is right for me" attitude, too.
Also, thank you for the awesome link, veggydog! I've never had veganism and animal rights activism explained to me that way before. I especially like this part: "Buying meat, eggs, and/or dairy creates animal suffering–animals will be raised and slaughtered specifically for these products. But if the by-products are not sold, they will be thrown out or given away. As more people stop eating animals, the by-products will naturally fade, so there is no real reason to force other people to worry about them in order to call themselves "vegan.""
(from the link posted by veggydog: http://www.veganoutreach.org/advocacy/path.html#veganexample )
Since people put so little thought into where their food comes from or how it's made, it's difficult to get people to consider being veg*n. But I think a more contructive and thoughtful approach could really make a big difference. Instead of throwing paint on someone's fur coat and making animal rights activists out to be crazy or disrespectful (plus they'll probably just buy another fur coat!) why not inform people of the positive effects of veg*anism?
Though I think it's easier said than done. Sometimes it's a little overwhelming having to explaining your choices all the time. While it's true that you shouldn't have to defend your choice, sometimes not defending it (like just saying it's a personal choice) will lead to more questioning...and people telling you how hypocritical/'crazy' you are...