When people say they are veg*n but really aren't.
My mom was visiting the other day, and we were talking with my roommate, and my mom asked her, "So, are you vegan too?" And my roommate said no, she eats meat. My mom replied, "Oh yeah, me neither. I am vegetarian but I can't do the vegan thing. I need my eggs and dairy for protein."
WTF? First of all, my mom is in NO WAY a vegetarian. Just the other day she made a stir fry with chicken using the General Tao's recipe from here. Why do people say they are vegetarian when they aren't?
And of course, she exhibits the typical omni sentiment that vegans don't get enough protein. I swear, she knows better! But that's beside the point.
I don't know, I just got frustrated and confused in that she was looking for a non-vegan ally right in front of my face. And that she claimed to be vegetarian. ???
Nava Atlas, a chef and cookbook author I admire, has a blurb in her vegetarian family cookbook about soy cheese and casein. She writes that some vegans use cheese that contains casein, as "doing the best they can" at avoiding dairy products. For me I do use rice cheese for my kids as I have completely stopped using dairy cheeses and these are just more palatable for them. Rice cheese and some other brands of "veggie" cheese do have casein in them. I would like my children to make their own decision about being vegan, so for now I will continue to raise them as ovo-veggies. I wondered what other vegans think as to this casein thing, is this at all acceptable to you, or are you very strict. I like it that alot of vegans on this site are so relaxed, I think that if you can sit back and say we are all doing the best we can at avoiding animal products and thus minimizing our impact on amimal suffering, that is great and sending a wonderful message out to other folks who are not Veg*ns.
Nava Atlas, a chef and cookbook author I admire, has a blurb in her vegetarian family cookbook about soy cheese and casein. She writes that some vegans use cheese that contains casein, as "doing the best they can" at avoiding dairy products. For me I do use rice cheese for my kids as I have completely stopped using dairy cheeses and these are just more palatable for them. Rice cheese and some other brands of "veggie" cheese do have casein in them. I would like my children to make their own decision about being vegan, so for now I will continue to raise them as ovo-veggies. I wondered what other vegans think as to this casein thing, is this at all acceptable to you, or are you very strict. I like it that alot of vegans on this site are so relaxed, I think that if you can sit back and say we are all doing the best we can at avoiding animal products and thus minimizing our impact on amimal suffering, that is great and sending a wonderful message out to other folks who are not Veg*ns.
I do think any step toward minimizing the impact on animal suffering is great, and I know everyone has a different "line." My issue with a person calling him/herself vegan (and not avoiding certain dairy products/meats) is the confusion that stems from this, but I've already talked about that. As a vegan, I abstain from animal derived products, so I would not purchase/eat non-dairy cheese with casein. I like that you are not labeling your children as vegan, since they are still consuming some dairy derived products. I wouldn't call myself a "strict vegan" because that is redundant.
eta: I always forgot (or never really knew) how to correctly pronounce (or think the word) 'casein.' Is it like case-een? Or case-in? Or CAS-in? ???
Nava Atlas, a chef and cookbook author I admire, has a blurb in her vegetarian family cookbook about soy cheese and casein. She writes that some vegans use cheese that contains casein, as "doing the best they can" at avoiding dairy products. For me I do use rice cheese for my kids as I have completely stopped using dairy cheeses and these are just more palatable for them. Rice cheese and some other brands of "veggie" cheese do have casein in them. I would like my children to make their own decision about being vegan, so for now I will continue to raise them as ovo-veggies. I wondered what other vegans think as to this casein thing, is this at all acceptable to you, or are you very strict. I like it that alot of vegans on this site are so relaxed, I think that if you can sit back and say we are all doing the best we can at avoiding animal products and thus minimizing our impact on amimal suffering, that is great and sending a wonderful message out to other folks who are not Veg*ns.
I think that if eating a cheese with casein is what keeps you from completing giving in to dairy products altogether, then it's better to just eat the cheese. Personally, I haven't found that I need these products, so I just don't buy them. For me, it's easier just to find peace with living without these products. But again, I wouldn't hold it against someone if eating cheeses with casein was what kept them vegan otherwise. I just don't find them that necessary, and I view my ability to choose not to eat them as another way to minimize suffering. I don't think I would call my self vegan if I ate them, knowing how I live now. Because I wouldn't be "doing the best I can."
Of course, there is the argument that by creating a demand for non-dairy cheeses, we create a bigger market for them and do more good in the long run. I don't know how I feel about this. I tend to avoid processed vegan substitutes anyway. Casein is likely carcinogenic, by the way, according to the China Study. So I'm not really a fan. I think we can do better. Now I kind of feel like writing to these cheese companies. >:(
eta: I always forgot (or never really knew) how to correctly pronounce (or think the word) 'casein.' Is it like case-een? Or case-in? Or CAS-in? ???
I say "case-een." No idea if that's right. ???
I say "case-een." No idea if that's right. ???
That was my most recent thought, because that's how the Dr. in that video that THHF posted..said it (I think).
Thanks, guys! Glad to know I'm not banned! ;)
Also, I don't think eating a little casein is the end of the world. I don't really like to eat soycheese in general, since it is processed. I agree that if eating a little casein-soy cheese is what keeps you basically vegan, then it is better than not. I mean, it is all about balance. If we were to beat ourselves up for being less than 100% perfect, then it might be easier to justify just going off the other side and eating anything!
I agree, though, that it is annoying when "vegans" or "vegetarians" eat actual animal products, since it does send a message to people that veg*ns are weak or something. Or that we need that stuff. Or that it tastes better (yummm...rotting chicken flesh is so much tastier than crusted tempeh with mango avocado salsa)
I also explain to people (in more in depth conversations) that I would not be considered a vegan by some, because of my honey use, so I think most people who know me understand what a vegan is, and how I eat. But, I also think that it is important and good that there are many veg*ns like you guys who are more moderate in their thinking, and not so harsh and judgmental!! That approach (MILITANT veganism) just makes us all look bad, I think. And it just doesn't do much to increase the understanding and openness of non-veg*ns.
Love you guys! :)>>>
Yes, "case-een" is correct, a milk protein, that according to research in The China Study has been shown to be carcinogenic in large amounts. I do hate to be too stringent, with the children, however and we will get there eventually. They are such troupers and have had alot of changes in thier diets, I only wish I would have known what I know now when they were babies!! Im telling you labels are tricky things! There are alot of "Soy" cheeses and yogurts out on the market that contain dairy products! Im still mad about the soy yogurt thing with dairy cultures. >:(
Totally off topic, but as a "vegan" mommy, I have to say that one of the best things I ever did was to buy a soymilk maker. It is flippin awesome!! Plus, now I have a yogurt maker. So, basically I am making from scratch and fresh soy/almond milk and soy/almond yogurt. I know exactly what is in it, plus it is way healthier and not processed! Not to mention cheaper!!! The way my little one eats yogurt, I was getting very tired of buying junk like White Wave soygurt (no offense, anyone who likes it!!), as it is so high in sugar and feels so denatured to me.
Just a tip I found helpful... :)
The vegan community seems to always have questions of how much vegan is really being vegan. I question how much it divides the community while trying to unite it under a common standard.
We don't hear carnivores questioning whether people are still a member of their community because they do not eat beef/sheep brains, tentacles and cooked fish that stare back at them. In other words, when carnivores point out that vegans are not a monolithic culture, I advise them that carnivores are a diverse culture, too. Some of them even eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and survive to consider themselves carnivores on the following morning.
In addition to strict vegans, there are also flexivegans (a form of flexitarians), vegans who do not take the vegan temperance pledge, and stealth vegans (those who have not told their parents or boss). Vegans have imaginations that would allow them to define many other types of vegans.
My personal feeling is that inclusivity of counting people in means that they may progress to greater degrees of veganism. It also means that they feel more like members of a community and will be less likely to leave.
I am glad what there are strict vegans aw well as many others in various stages. With regards to the liars, I let the carnivores call them on their deception and stand ready to help them further along the path.
Non-sarcastic humor helps. Most people are not ready to discuss the philosophical, spiritual and health issues associated with veganism. But I try to be a friend so that they will seek me out when they are ready.
I shouldn't be posting here since I'm not vegan, but I'm a bit pissy and this is the perfect place to vent. There was an article I just read about Oprah going vegan...People started posting comments, and then this girl says, "Oh, I'm 80% vegan, I eat fish every now and then, and I only eat dairy (cheese and ice cream) maybe 3-4 times a week..." DUDE!!! YOU'RE NOT VEGAN! You're not even vegetarian, you're a pescetarian!! So I posted a comment, telling her not to call herself a vegan, it'll only confuse omnis. Some other person posted too, it was kinda funny, "80%? you either are, or aren't!" Just wanted to vent.
I shouldn't be posting here since I'm not vegan, but I'm a bit pissy and this is the perfect place to vent. There was an article I just read about Oprah going vegan...People started posting comments, and then this girl says, "Oh, I'm 80% vegan, I eat fish every now and then, and I only eat dairy (cheese and ice cream) maybe 3-4 times a week..." DUDE!!! YOU'RE NOT VEGAN! You're not even vegetarian, you're a pescetarian!! So I posted a comment, telling her not to call herself a vegan, it'll only confuse omnis. Some other person posted too, it was kinda funny, "80%? you either are, or aren't!" Just wanted to vent.
Exactly. If we are going to apply "vegan" so liberally, then everyone is vegan. Every time a person eats a fruit, vegetable, grain, or bean, she can call herself vegan? I don't think so.
We don't hear carnivores questioning whether people are still a member of their community because they do not eat beef/sheep brains, tentacles and cooked fish that stare back at them. In other words, when carnivores point out that vegans are not a monolithic culture, I advise them that carnivores are a diverse culture, too. Some of them even eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and survive to consider themselves carnivores on the following morning.
I guess I don't quite understand this. Veganism, to me, has to do with eliminating from your life those products which depend upon the exploitation of animals. (I'm not addressing health food veganism here, though). That's a pretty basic underlying theme, right? So, is there a "type" of way you can do this? Either you believe that animal exploitation and suffering are wrong, or you do not. If you believe some types of animal exploitation are ok, then how is that vegan? It isn't vegan at all. There is no room for diversity among vegans regarding whether animal exploitation is ok. That would be like saying, "We need to respect that not all Christians believe in Christ." (I hate to use a religious metaphor, because veganism is not a religion at all, but the idea is the same here). It renders the entire stance meaningless. Vegans are those people who find ethical fault with the exploitation of animals. Why is it so difficult to apply a simple definition?
Also, I don't hear many people refer to themselves as carnivores, but if they did, I guess they would be incorrect to label themselves as such if they ate foods other than meat. The majority of people are omnivores, though, and for the most part they are not interested in taking a strong stand on animal exploitation the way vegans are. So I'm not really sure how you draw a parallel between veganism, which is more of a movement, and omnivorism (is that even a word?) as equally diverse ways of eating. I agree that they can both be very diverse, but not on the issue of consuming animals. That is what defines and divides these classes of diets in the first place. An omnivore is a person who eats any meat at all. It can be a little or a lot, a variety of animals or only one, a variety of body parts or only muscle and fat.
A person can be committed to reducing her consumption of animal products. And she can proudly say, "I try to reduce my consumption of animal products by eating less of x, y, and z." I would argue that this unifies her with vegans and other like minded people more so than if she went around calling herself "80% vegan." To say so is meaningless and confusing to vegans and omnis alike.
Terms such as "flexitarian" are so vexing to me. That's like saying, "Well, I think animal exploitation is wrong, most of the time, but it is not that important to me that I can't renege on it every so often." Should we call someone a "flexi-rapist" or a "flexi-murderer"? A "'flexi-homophobe" or a "flexi-racist"? A "flexi-human-rights-activist"? I find these terms equally nonsensical as "flexivegan."
A person can be an omni, a pescatarian, a vegetarian, or a vegan, or she can be working her way between them. Each of us can determine which place along the path is right for us at any give point in our lives. And we can describe it accurately. No one should be ashamed to say, "I'm working toward veganism" or "I try to eat less meat and dairy," or something similar. Or even, "I don't have a problem eating animals, but it makes me feel better if I don't do so very often." Describing our beliefs plainly and accurately is the only way that we can have an open dialogue and realize our similarities (and differences).
I guess I don't quite understand this..
Yes. Yes, to all that you said.
I shouldn't be posting here since I'm not vegan...
No, you should post here! I want to hear what lots of people think about it. It's important to vegans and non-vegans.
I guess I don't quite understand this..
Yes. Yes, to all that you said.
Aww, thanks. Just trying my best to make sense of things.
Aww, thanks. Just trying my best to make sense of things.
It seems that the vast majority of the time we are saying the same thing....so maybe now all of our posts should be thought of as from KMK and AC. Or, maybe I'm just speaking for myself..and you're like, WTF..I don't want your stinkin' posts.. :o
Aww, thanks. Just trying my best to make sense of things.
It seems that the vast majority of the time we are saying the same thing....so maybe now all of our posts should be thought of as from KMK and AC. Or, maybe I'm just speaking for myself..and you're like, WTF..I don't want your stinkin' posts.. :o
WTF! I don't want your stinkin' posts! >:(
No, it's true though. We're very similar! Maybe we are long lost sisters. We should merge our usernames into one. And since my middle name is Allisen, it can be KateAllychristine. Or something.
But that's what I love about VW! Lots of similar views as a sanity check, but clearly lots of different ones too!
No, it's true though. We're very similar! Maybe we are long lost sisters. We should merge our usernames into one. And since my middle name is Allisen, it can be KateAllychristine. Or something.
KAC! Maybe we could just be good friends...I don't think we're sisters b/c I'm not even a little bit small..
No, it's true though. We're very similar! Maybe we are long lost sisters. We should merge our usernames into one. And since my middle name is Allisen, it can be KateAllychristine. Or something.
KAC! Maybe we could just be good friends...I don't think we're sisters b/c I'm not even a little bit small..
My dad's 6'2". It could happen.
We're off topic! Save this nonsense for the chitchat thread, KAC! ;D
Totally off topic, but as a "vegan" mommy, I have to say that one of the best things I ever did was to buy a soymilk maker. It is flippin awesome!! Plus, now I have a yogurt maker. So, basically I am making from scratch and fresh soy/almond milk and soy/almond yogurt. I know exactly what is in it, plus it is way healthier and not processed! Not to mention cheaper!!! The way my little one eats yogurt, I was getting very tired of buying junk like White Wave soygurt (no offense, anyone who likes it!!), as it is so high in sugar and feels so denatured to me.
Just a tip I found helpful... :)
I love this, quintess! I hope to do the same some day. Out with the processed crap, in with the whole stuff!
Quintess, please tell me what type of soymilk maker you have, and if you are happy with it. SO the soymilk maker makes yogurt too? I really want to get one but am not sure what brand is good. Can you also make rice/nut milks with it?
Thanks!! You reminded me of how badly I want one of these things!
Totally off topic, but as a "vegan" mommy, I have to say that one of the best things I ever did was to buy a soymilk maker. It is flippin awesome!! Plus, now I have a yogurt maker. So, basically I am making from scratch and fresh soy/almond milk and soy/almond yogurt. I know exactly what is in it, plus it is way healthier and not processed! Not to mention cheaper!!! The way my little one eats yogurt, I was getting very tired of buying junk like White Wave soygurt (no offense, anyone who likes it!!), as it is so high in sugar and feels so denatured to me.
Just a tip I found helpful... :)
KissMeKate
This is a response to your post #1277. Please pardon the fact that have not mastered how others can put quotes in separate boxes. I am new to this site.
1. "That would be like saying, "We need to respect that not all Christians believe in Christ.""
There are Christians who do not believe in Christ. Within the Unitarian Universalist Church there are people who believe in Jesus as a great moral teacher. They do not believe in him as God. They do not accept Jesus as Christ, the Son of God. They are called UU Christians. We do need to respect that not all Christians believe in Christ.
2. " That is what defines and divides these classes of diets in the first place."
For me, it may define, but it does not need to divide. I appreciate the clarity of strict vegans as well as those people who are on a path that is less strict. I want bot types to be a part of vegan culture.
3. "Terms such as "flexitarian" are so vexing to me. That's like saying, "Well, I think animal exploitation is wrong, most of the time, but it is not that important to me that I can't renege on it every so often." Should we call someone a "flexi-rapist" or a "flexi-murderer"? A "'flexi-homophobe" or a "flexi-racist"? A "flexi-human-rights-activist"? I find these terms equally nonsensical as "flexivegan.""
As a former flexitarian, I was offended by this paragraph. To me, associating flexitarians with "flexi-murderers" and "flexi-rapists" is a blatant denial of the compassion of flexitarians. It also makes omnivores wonder what kind of compassion they might experience when they meet a vegan. I consider this paragraph to be a form of flame-baiting and inappropriate for the vegweb.com website.
4. Today I had oat cereal for breakfast. This cereal contained sugar. While I do consider sugar to be vegan, its manufacture from sugar cane produces molasses as a side product. My earlier vegan reading noted that molasses is purified over charred beef bones. I do not know whether that is still occurring.
I question whether others would consider me to be a flexitarian because I had sugar this morning (due to its association with suffering related to the charred cow bones in the molasses industry)? Generally, I use turbinado sugar because it is just dried sugar syrup from sugar cane. I am also reassured that there are molasses cookies on this website.
Nevertheless, as I continued to eat, it felt better to call myself a "health nut" instead of a "vegan". Maybe I will call myself a "health nut" in the future.
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