defining vegetarianism
As some of you may know I went vegan back in March. Before going vegan I called myself a vegetarian. But I ate water dwelling members of the animal kingdom (I called it "seafood") And now I look back and wonder how in the world i thought of myself as a vegetarian. Am I so stupid as to think that fish are plants?
But then a while back, I was checking out the recipe books at the local used book store with my mom and I was totally annoyed to see vegetarian cook book after cook book include fish and crabs and other crustaceans in the ingredients. NO WONDER I THOUGHT I WAS VEGETARIAN!!!
If someone had said to me"zealia, eat fish your not a stickin' vegetarian..." I'd probably have thought to myself:Myself, They have a point. I do eat fish. I am not a vegetarian...I should remedy this situation if I want to be a vegetarian
So I have committed to being the vegetarian police...hahaha. If I have somebody tell me they are a vegetarian but eat fish Ill inform them that they are a pescatarin...I think I also want to urge the book store to classify those cookbooks as pescatarian.....
Don't get me wrong- pescatarian is better than the typical American diet...but fish re still animals...This is totally not a "holier-than-thou" thing...its about being clear and factual...and hopefully pushing people to examine their beliefs a little more thouroughly...
and vegans who eat honey....watch your backs cause you're next on my list!!!! ::)
I understand wanting to be clear and factual but I still say that eating organic honey and calling myself vegan (especially when explaining to SAD eater) is faaaar closer on the spectrum of "what I am" than saying I'm a strict vegetarian and listing every thing else I don't use and what else I don't eat.
Since there are numerous threads dedicated to my rants on this particular subject that all I'm saying. ;)
Respect and love to the purists. :)
In grade school in the 60's, we were taught about "animals, fish and birds" as if "animals" only included mammals, reptiles and amphibians. Then in high school some teachers would include birds among the "animals" but exclude fish. Also, "insects" meant all bugs with an exoskeleton, although by definition an insect has 6 legs; anything else is an invertebrate.
Yes, it's pretty wild, but maybe that's where some of the confusion comes in; also because in monastic circles fish "doesn't count" as flesh. I once read a book that explained that the whole "fish on Friday" thing actually started as a result of "dearths" (ie shortages) and was just a way of getting people to expect less meat in their diet.
I admit, I still eat game meat, dairy or seafood once in a while. It just makes it easier when going out to resturaunts or to someone else's house for dinner, weddings etc. I actually had homemade mac & real cheese last night at a friends house, I couldn't resist. And it was REALLY good. Admitting that, I completely agree with you Zealia, I do NOT refer to myself as a vegitarian. If someone else does, I make a point to correct them. I tell them, I try not to eat meat or dairy, but I am flexible about it. Maybe in a few years I'll become a vegitarian, but I am not quite there yet.
Yabbit, it REALLY irritates me when people act like they are giving up SO much by only having seafood on fridays....I always tell people the only reason for the fish on fridays was because Jesus was a fisherman-haha
I had to go to St Andrews recently for a conference and stayed in a really nice B&B. I asked for the vegetarian cooked breakfast in the morning (so described on the menu) so discover it was a huge plate of smoked salmon with scrambled eggs on top. Yummy, but not vegetarian.
The fish one confounds me, too...
I just try to eat cruelty free, which 99% of the time means vegan. And it's much easier to say vegan than to explain cruelty free.
you're right, i don't think eating fish is vegetarian. I'm a vegetarian myself and went through that transitional phase where I still ate some fish occasionally and would say I'm mainly vegetarian but eat fish occasionally, I wouldn't get so much shit for that. But then when i gave up fish and would say I'm vegetarian people would say "oh soo do you eat eggs? drink milk? cheese???" and I would say "yes" so from then on I started saying I'm a lacto ovo vegetarian, which still kind of confuses me from time to time because is eating that stuff really vegetarian? I mean what is vegetarian? where do we draw the line between what a "reaaaaal" vegetarian is ? I call myself vegetarian now, with that said I stopped buying or eating cage free eggs, stopped drinking milk and rarely eat cheese...but, that's not to say that if someone offered me say a pasty with eggs in it I wouldn't eat it...most likely not, but it could happen....soooooo what IS a real vegetarian?? :-\ :-\ :-\
Oh, man..while working as a waitress a few years ago, I had a lady come in who claimed to be "vegetarian" and asked me to point out a few entrees that she could choose from. I told her that, honestly, other than salad and peanut butter and jelly *uncrustables*, we didn't have much. She then proceeded to tell me "Oh, I eat chicken..I'll have the chicken quesadilla."
Because chicken is a vegetable that grows right beside my tomatoes. ::)
The way it's defined is different in different countries as well.
Oh, man..while working as a waitress a few years ago, I had a lady come in who claimed to be "vegetarian" and asked me to point out a few entrees that she could choose from. I told her that, honestly, other than salad and peanut butter and jelly *uncrustables*, we didn't have much. She then proceeded to tell me "Oh, I eat chicken..I'll have the chicken quesadilla."
Because chicken is a vegetable that grows right beside my tomatoes. ::)
HA! A woman visiting my wife's office back in the day told her, "Oh, I don't eat meat either. Just fish and chicken." To this day I'm amazed at the willpower it must have taken fro my wife to not yell, "DUH!"
My brother's girlfriend calls herself a vegetarian, yet she eats fish. I tried to discuss this with her once but she just laughed it off and referred to fish as "vegetables from the sea". I don't understand this whole idea that somehow fish and chicken aren't meat. If it is classified as part of the animal kingdom, it is meat and if you eat it you are not a vegetarian. Years ago I recall people calling themselves "semi-vegetarians" if they ate chicken and fish but not beef and pork. I never really understood that either. If you only eat half as many animals you are half a vegetarian???? I think not!
My brother's girlfriend calls herself a vegetarian, yet she eats fish. I tried to discuss this with her once but she just laughed it off and referred to fish as "vegetables from the sea". I don't understand this whole idea that somehow fish and chicken aren't meat. If it is classified as part of the animal kingdom, it is meat and if you eat it you are not a vegetarian. Years ago I recall people calling themselves "semi-vegetarians" if they ate chicken and fish but not beef and pork. I never really understood that either. If you only eat half as many animals you are half a vegetarian???? I think not!
I think a lot of is stems from older ideas of what a fish's mental/nervous capacities were. There's a line in a Nirvana song, "It's okay to eat fish, because they don't have any feelings." It was assumend their nervous systems and mental capacaties were much less than recent studies are showing them to be.
So one using the the ability for a creature to suffer as a pivot point for what they include in their diet, may be being swayed by a long line inaccurate thought.
That's a theory, anyways.
It amazes me how often people refer to my BF as a vegetarian. He eats no other flesh than the occasional bit of chicken when we go out w/ friends. He would never dream of calling himself a vegetarian but others still do and it drives both of us nuts :D
Of course it wasn't a very far drive ;D
When my mother was getting ready to come out for her last visit, I shot her an email to let her know that I'm a vegetarian now (lacto-ovo, although not so much with the ovo because the last time I ate an egg I gagged on it as I realized that if that egg had been permitted to go through its natural course of development it would have been a chicken). She proudly told me that she was, too.
So when she came, the ONLY meal that she ate that didn't include piles of meat was the one meal when we took her to a vegan restaurant. :( I got sick watching her eat. I think she's in denial about how much meat she eats, because it was revolting.
I have run across more wanna be vegetarians that ate chicken, fish or even a bite of veal because "it looked so good". *rolls eyes*
It is a hard line to walk really, because you want to correct their incorrect assumptions but being rude makes them defensive. Once that happens the conversation goes nowhere good. So next time say something like "Ah a Pescitarian! ... " try to then relate something relevant but not holier than thou like "i did that myself before I became Lacto / Ovo or Vegan" or "Cool, my sister in law is one as well".
Not everyone is veg*n for the same reasons. So being the "Veg*n Police" will just make people angry and uncooperative rather than willing to listen and learn. Good luck!
Because chicken is a vegetable that grows right beside my tomatoes. ::)
hahaha!! my algebra teacher claimed to be vegetarian because she does not eat pig.
but yet, eats cows, chickens, etc.
okay then?
So being the "Veg*n Police" will just make people angry and uncooperative rather than willing to listen and learn.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
My boyfriend asked me if it would be okay not to give up seafood, and I told him that if eating seafood at restaurants would help him be comfortable living in a home without meat in it then that was fine with me, and it was a decision that really he had to feel comfortable with.
I've never liked seafood much anyway, so I decided not to even bother with it.
I think as time goes by he'll give up fish as well, but I'm not going to push it or tell him he's not a vegetarian, because he's very proud that he's sticking to it with me. He's not doing this out of compassion for animals, but a) because I wanted to and he wants to support me, and b) because it's so much healthier. I always assumed there were varying degrees of vegetarian, because a lot of people don't become vegetarian overnight. They have things that they take out of their diet one by one.
If it makes someone feel like they are part of something great to say they are a vegetarian even if they eat fish, I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's encouraging to support them, after all they might be on their way to giving up fish as well. Criticizing them probably won't help them do that. It might do the opposite.
I consider myself an ovo-lacto vegetarian. However on a few rare occasions I have eaten seafood, when my options were between eating a couple of shrimp or not eating. Although I don't consider eating seafood vegetarian, I don't feel that it makes me non-veg. I avoid all animals in general, and try to even limit the dairy and eggs I consume. I started off a very strict, basically vegan, but have added dairy and eggs back into my diet.
I don't view vegetarianism with religious zeal. However I do refuse to eat mammals, poultry and fish. I do think of them as higher animals than invertebrates, and I have much less problem eating a shrimp or oyster, when it comes down to it. I would say that 99.9% (or more) of the time, I eat strictly vegetarian or even vegan. My initial reason for going veg was for health reasons, and I became committed once I learned about factory farming methods. I don't think that eating another animal is inherently wrong or completely unnatural for humans, but I do feel it is unnecessary and wasteful. If an animal is killed for food, it should be as painless and respectful as possible, and the animal should not have been abused beforehand. However, at this point, I don't think I could eat even a humanely killed mammal, unless I was starving.
I don't get how chicken could be considered vegetarian....but I guess it's best to assume people are more strict than they are. If someone told me they were veg*n, I would be sure to ask how strict they were before trying to cook for them. Otherwise I would just make a vegan meal...
Maybe you already know this, Prettyinpunk, but "may contain traces" usually just mean it's processed in a factory that also processes dairy, nuts, whatever. It doesn't mean that dairy, etc are ingredients, however small, in what you're buying. They're just covering their asses in case someone with uberallergies explodes when their potato chip happens to have a few molecules of milk on it. Now, some vegans choose to avoid "traces" anyway, and that's cool -- very hardcore, and I respect it. But I sure as heck don't avoid it, and I call myself vegan with no qualms.
I think anyone who tries to reduce their intake of animal products -to no matter what extent - should be commended.
However, when people eat meat/honey occasionally but call themselves vegetarian/vegan, it completely clouds the definition and promotes the idea that veganism etc is subject to opinion.
There are no varying levels of veganism. You either purchase animal products or you don't.
If you do, then that's your choice and I'm not having a go - like I said, any reduction is great - but just don't call yourselves vegan! It's unfair to those who are true vegans. Say you're nearly vegan or something...
I think anyone who tries to reduce their intake of animal products -to no matter what extent - should be commended.
However, when people eat meat/honey occasionally but call themselves vegetarian/vegan, it completely clouds the definition and promotes the idea that veganism etc is subject to opinion.
There are no varying levels of veganism. You either purchase animal products or you don't.
If you do, then that's your choice and I'm not having a go - like I said, any reduction is great - but just don't call yourselves vegan! It's unfair to those who are true vegans. Say you're nearly vegan or something...
I totally disagree. The honey thing is debatable, and there are levels of veganism. No vegan police, please.
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